The Mindset

[SomeguyUK]

My experience with indirect openers like ‘how do you get to Starbucks’ or ‘how’s the food here?’ is that they get you into a productive personal conversation with a girl about 1/20 times.

There’s probably people who can do a lot better than that – but that’s my experience as someone who has had no formal coaching.

I find direct approaches get me into personal conversation maybe 5/10 times, and I probably get attraction 2/10 times. So numbers-wise I think direct is better just for practice getting into conversation with random women. I honestly don’t like going direct that much, but that is good experience for a newbie who just wants to get used to chatting up girls.

When I first started dabbling with this stuff about 6 years ago, I used to use opinion openers similar to the ones used in ‘the Game’. I have not used them at all since making a real commitment to improving this area in my life – but looking back they worked far better than any ‘situational’ indirect opener. I just think I would feel lame using them now.

I think direct openers are great for guys like me who are still beginners but not total beginners. At the end of the day they have got me into personal conversation with more gorgeous women than anything else I’ve tried – that is great for desensitising yourself to that fear. They are also great for improving your self image – I find when I hear myself saying these ballsy things it actually start to see myself differently. Indirect does not do that for you.

But I agree that going from zero to direct approaches is ridiculous. I had a friend that was doing some free writing work for one of the ‘top’ day game coaches here in London, and the guy repaid him with some free coaching. I should add at this point that my friend was a Virgin at 26. The coach was getting him to run up to women who were walking in the street with a direct approach – probably one of the scariest things you can do. Needless to say, my friend made no progress and found the experience terrifying.

I honestly think all the pickup coaches here in London – at least the ones with any profile – are total scammers.

[MrAntiquity]

@Ryan–it’s not that I Want to do it 0% of the time–it’s just that I’ve been stopping myself from doing anything that forward for many years so it’s not just going to open up tomorrow. I agree that when it DOES open up it will be a great release.

Also–man, we have to lose the direct/indirect nonsense–whoever came up with that made a huge mistake. (I assume it wasn’t Eric or Lee–if so, sorry 🙂

“Direct” is free expression. In other words, the old, traditional “chatting people up”. If you want to say I think you’re cute/hot/sexy fine, if not fine. In this sense, Lee’s “deep thoughts” is 100% direct.

“Indirect” arises out of a fear of your own honesty so you need a workaround in hopes that the conversation flow will eventually give you an invitation to move things forward. If I see a girl and think “Man, what do I say, what do I say, ok, I’ll ask her the time”. That’s “indirect”, or as I prefer to think of it “trying to find a way in”.

But if you walk right up to someone and say “So hi there–what’s the square root of twenty-eight?” That’s direct.

[MrAntiquity]

Also….just walking up to someone and delivering the line “I thought you were so cute/hot/whatever and would have been kicking myself all day if I didn’t walk up and say hi” (the classic PUA direct line, and the tackiest line I’ve ever heard in my life and thank god I never said it)

isn’t really direct either. It’s a packaged line, meaning that to say it you’re getting into character. YOu’re an actor. Maybe it works on occasion, anything works on occasion, but it’s not really an honest/direct line. UNLESS you’re actually feeling it, and it is actually what you want to say.

[SomeguyUK]

Having just read your last reply Ryano (I think both of us were posting almost at the same time), I have one other comment about direct approaches.

I think a lot of guys who want to get better in this stuff have deep emotional issues and insecurities with women. I would include myself in that category – although I have worked through a lot of it.

For guys like me, one of the hardest things is/was showing women that you like them. That moment of vulnerability is very hard to expose yourself to when you come across it in normal settings.

But if you are strong enough to intentionally expose yourself to it,
you start to realise it is no big deal. That there is no big danger. That women are actually nice. That not only is it safe to show people you like them – but you can actually get attraction just by doing that.

I’m not suggesting that every guy who struggles with women would benefit from direct approaches – but that intentional vulnerability has helped me personally 100%.

[ryano]

@MrAntiquity that “trying to find a way in” mentality is pretty much suicide for your dating life. i can tell that you’ve clung to that, I did for the longest time too. But it doesn’t work at all. Women see the man as being weak when he does that and just don’t want to have anything to do with a situation like that.

As far as indirect/direct. I think it’s an important topic. It’s actually the crux of the whole matter. Basically showing your intent/not showing your intent. Alot of guys struggle with this so I think it’s a worthwhile discussion.

As far as your point with the “i think you’re cute line” being indirect, i COMPLETELY agree. guys, especially the london based guys say that like a script. in a way is sounds indirect. The guy needs to say exactly what he feels to the girl.. and really say what’s on his mind. he needs to be ok with whatever he says, he needs to be ok with not being perfect. or even saying something that doesn’t sound clever. even if it’s a comment about her shirt or whatever. when u say that whole “i thought i’d be kicking myself…” crap, it’s like you need to say a line you heard on the internet because you’re not okay with just coming out with your own way of talking.

@SomeguyUK Absolutely. That intentional vulnerability as you call it is really the only way. mark manson in his book models talks alot about this. he has a section called ‘vulnerability and showing desire’ in it he argues that being vulnerable is what causes attraction in the first place. it’s like that woody allen movie vicky cristina barcelona where the guy is completely relaxed and just lets them know crystal clear what he’s about. that always works a gazillion times better than hiding behind what you want.

as far as what you said about your friend, i want to say that direct does take a bit of time to develop. you can’t just run around going direct for a day and expect women to fall all over you. you need to do it again and again to essentially desensitize you from anxiety. when you have ZERO anxiety, kind of like the guy in the above clip that’s when the girls find you interesting.. and quite frankly when i approach girls it’s moreso like this guy because i’m so unaffected by them cause i’ve seen this play out so many times. when you feel like you’re “bored” with it, that’s when it works the best=). keep doing it. i know you’re almost there. you’ll be killing it if you just keep hammering away at this. no doubt about it.

[MrAntiquity]

I’m not saying I like it–I’m just saying that historically I’ve relied on it because i was afraid to do anything else. No, it’s not effective. But what makes it ineffective isn’t the line itself–it’s the hesitation behind it.

[SomeguyUK]

I think there is a big difference between indirect and direct.

There are pros and cons of both. But direct takes more balls (and grows your balls
more). It gets you into personal conversation quicker and it has a more polarising effect. I have gone direct on model-looking women before and had them instantly start asking me rapport questions (which I answered badly). I’ve never had that with indirect openers.

I’ve used ‘deep thoughts’ a fair bit and I actually would put it in the category of indirect openers. It doesn’t work if you make eye contact with a girl 10 metres away and walk over to her. But it does work well if you are chatting up a girl you are sitting next to on a bus.

Obviously I’m not gonna argue with Lee on this subject as he has used it many more times than me! But my understanding is that the line is meant to be delivered in a serendipitous way rather than being a shrouded direct approach (which would be lower value).

[SomeguyUK]

@ryano

Cheers man, I will keep plowing away 🙂

[ryano]

well you using a ‘line’ like deep thoughts, IMHO would already kill off any shred of authenticity you might have. if it works for lee that’s great. but i think the goal here is to make yourself unique and say something that makes sense for you. here’s a better idea: just use any way of talking that you PERSONALLY think is a good idea. it doesn’t need to be flashy. “how’s it going?” is a good one. it could work just as well.

@MrAntiquity, so if you KNOW this what’s stopping you? I don’t get it. why do you care about their impression of you? understand that NOT CARING is exactly what’s attractive to them.

[ryano]

@MrAntiquity you’re like a fat guy eating cake and yelling he wants to be skinny. making it “hurt” and facing your fears is exactly what gets you results. just like going to the gym, you get muscles by pushing thru resistance. in pickup you get laid by pushing thru resistance too. and one things for certain. resistance will be there. i’d say only about 1-2 girls out of 10 that you approach you’ll get a number from. the majority is resistance.

[The_Hurricane]

Working out is a great analogy. Studies show that most athletes are overtrained. The answer is not more pain but smarter workouts. You took a pickup course and sarged for a year before you took the daygame class that opened your eyes to the power of direct approaching. Most of the guys who come to me are not there. They are at the point where a few days of pain are going to make them more nervous not less nervous. For most newbies, a gradual, gentle approach is much, much better.

And yes, Deep Thoughts is a direct approach. Here is where I draw the line: does she know that you’re flirting with her? When you ask for directions, the answer is no. When you tell her she’s thinking deep thoughts, the answer is yes. In fact, Deep Thoughts is more direct than a compliment. Ostensibly, a compliment can mean that you’re not interested in talking. That happens all the time. You say nice boots and walk on. On the other hand, when you tell her she’s thinking deep thoughts, she knows you want to stick around and talk.

–Lee

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