Success rate- what is "average"
October 12, 2013 at 1:01 am #71029
I am very happy to be able to approach girls, but being human I always want more 😀
I wonder what a “good” success rate is on cold approaches. Like something I can achieve in 100 or 200 approaches worth of experience, not super-master-pick-up-artist-level. Currently I am sitting humbly at 0 % with my 30 or so approaches (yep, you can say I am pretty good at this).
I ask this as I want to understand if my approach (pick-up technique) is fundamentally wrong, or it is normal to fail this much before getting results.
p.s. I think Lee had mentioned 1/10, so 10% for you math freaks out there. But that is at what level? And what is considered a success?October 15, 2013 at 5:56 pm #71035
This is where people seriously bullshit. Pickup artists tell stories about phenomenal success rates – one in three or four – but the truth is much less impressive.
Here is how it works. If you get women into comfortable conversations – conversations in which they feel your interest but feel no pressure to consider you a romantic prospect – and then ask for contact info, guess what? You’re going to get it because it’s so comfortable for them to keep talking to you that it makes it all the more uncomfortable to say no.
But the truth is this: those numbers are worthless. That’s where the illusion comes from. Some pickup guys are great at this little game of collecting worthless phone numbers and this is what makes it look like their success rate is so high.
Numbers don’t count. Dates do. Glenn once told me something that I think is very accurate. Game aside, he asked me what fraction of women I thought I was compatible with. He pointed out how small that number must be. I realized that he’s right.
Just from my own perspective, if I stand on a busy street corner counting pretty girls in the approximate age range I want, I’m surprised by how many, on average, pass by before I find one who I think is physically attractive. And I live in New York City!
That’s just my physical interest in women. What about their interest in me? And then we get into emotional, intellectual, and lifestyle compatibility. (For example, if she’s not a reader, she’s not for me.) Attractive women are equally picky.
Why am I getting into all of this? I’m just pointing out that, even for seasoned pros like me, those numbers are going to be pretty low. 1 in 10 is a pretty good ratio. At my very best – when I gamed every day – I was one in seven for getting a date from an approach.
What should be the numbers for someone new to the game? It could be as low as one in a hundred.
The good news is that approaching two women every day, means you’re going to get one date every two months or so. And the numbers quickly improve from there. One in 20, a reasonable success ratio for most guys will get you a date every week and a half. After six months of this, guess what happens? Your repeat dates start to dominate your schedule and you start becoming more slective, choosing to forego dates with women you previously would have pursued.
And then, one day, you will be at a party with some friends who’ll introduce you to someone you really think is special. I know this isn’t what most men think of as a pickup. This is more of social circle game, but the reason I mention it is this. Before game, you would never have able to play this right. You’d have been nervous as hell. Only by approaching all those women cold are you able to bring yourself to this state where you can react well to every opportunity, no matter when it presents itself. And that’s when game really pays off.
–LeeOctober 15, 2013 at 6:57 pm #71036sdlParticipant
@Lee you said “If you get women into comfortable conversations – conversations in which they feel your interest but feel no pressure to consider you a romantic prospect – and then ask for contact info, guess what? You’re going to get it because it’s so comfortable for them to keep talking to you that it makes it all the more uncomfortable to say no”
This is perfect. That’s where I am now. I get into comfortable conversations all the time (which is great, a huge accomplishment for me) but most of the time nothing comes of it. I know a lot of it is that I’m still unsure of myself and I just need more experience but what do you do to break through that “niceness” and “comfort”? At first I didn’t understand why the numbers were mostly flaky but now I can sense whats happening, though I’m still trying to figure out how to rise above it.October 16, 2013 at 9:15 pm #71042
Well, first you should know that getting into long, comfortable conversations with women is a huge accomplishment. It’s the first half of game. I call this aspect of game social comfort.
You can’t get better without mastering social comfort. The reason it’s not, in and of itself, the highest level of game goes to the root of my definition of game. To me, the definition of game is mimicking – and eventually adopting – the behavioral patterns of the most desirable men, behavioral patterns that women naturally find attractive.
The mindset of the most desirable men is that they are always a little skeptical that the women they meet are good enough for them. The behavior that arises from this mindset takes many forms, including a more relaxed body language, more touching and less respect for personal space boundaries, more teasing, sexier conversation topics, more challenging questions (qualification), and, in general, a more charged, less comfortable conversation.
Yes, that’s right. You’ve spent all this time working your way up to a comfortable conversation, and now it’s time to make your conversations less comfortable. It’s time to make some women uncomfortable enough to walk away. Just by the process of elimination, this will lead to a lower flake rate. But on top of that, your willingness to push the boundaries and take chances will actually make you more attractive to the women who decide to stick around.
When Eric and I teach the Advanced Tactics workshop, we focus on the above aspects of game. We try to make your game edgy enough to lose the flakes and quickly get you into the hot zone with the rest.
Now, let me give you two examples of edgier game. Suppose you meet a lovely young lady. She asks you what you do. You tell her. You ask her what she does and she says she’s a model. It’s easy to raise your eyebrows, smile, and say “Wow. That’s great. You’re very beautiful.” Bzzzzzzzt! Lame-o-matic game. Instead, here is what I do: I nod, keep my face deliberately blank, and say “A model in New York.. (pause) Shocking.” Can you guess what kinds of reactions I get?
Second example. You told her what you do. You’ve asked her what she does. She says marketing. You follow up with a few questions. She answers. Then, you say: “Marketing, huh? A friend of mine is in marketing. Clever guy, but he hasn’t cracked a novel since high school. Is that you?”
These are small examples, but I think you’ll get the picture. In the Advanced Tactics workshop we build your whole approach around this idea of sexier, edgier, and less comfortable conversations.
Hope this helps.
–LeeOctober 17, 2013 at 9:33 pm #71047sdlParticipant
@Lee Thanks for the in depth answer. So what you’re saying is stop being happy just having a conversation with a cute girl and actually start finding out if she is someone you even care about hanging out with more. She’ll respect you for not fawning over her like every other man.
Do you feel its inauthentic or insulting to say something like “A model in New York…shocking.”? Or is it authentic because its coming from a mindset of being confident in who you are and not being bowled over by the fact that a pretty girl is talking to you?October 18, 2013 at 4:43 am #71048
What’s inauthentic about telling the truth? Models face fierce competition in NY. They work long hours (when they can find work) get paid very little and are constantly subjected to judgement about things they can’t change. In general, what about a pretty girl deserves anything more than a little curiosity on my part? Sure, I’ll walk over and say hello, but after that, I’m going to treat her no differently than I would anyone else I’m considering bringing into my life. Show me some random guy at a party and I’m going to be very skeptical that he’s funny, interesting, kind, and accomplished enough to be my friend. Why should I apply a different standard to meeting a woman? Women know when you have a double standard and instinctively equate it with neediness and a lack of opportunity. That’s why they love a good challenge. They know they’re dealing with a man worth fighting for.
Some men protest that game is deception, but I say that the part of game that these critics think of as deception is actually the learning process. In any learning process, what we’re learning is not what, at that point, we would naturally do, but we try and try to imitate those who do it naturally, and, little by little, it becomes natural to us. This is just as true of learning a language as it is of learning to box.
–LeeOctober 23, 2013 at 9:30 pm #71063
Thanks a lot for the responses. You are an inspiration man 🙂
Have given me a boost to keep at it. It is great there are people like you out there who are willing to help. If I ever come to America you and Eric are the first people I am meeting 😀
Currently at 55 approaches. Just did one at a gym- one other thing I was never before able to do. Yay!
What kind of books do you like reading? Can you recommend a good self-help one, or a good novel? I am into high fantasy when for fun, and I enjoy the self-help section (some real gems in there).
ZhelyazkoOctober 30, 2013 at 5:32 am #71074Introverted PlayboyParticipant
Lee is right, if you build up those basic conversation skills and dress at least normal and come across as a normal guy, there’s no reason you can’t get phone numbers from, say, 80% of the women you ask.
However, phone numbers and dates are two different animals.
At one point I got around 30% date success rate from bona fide solid cold approaches. To clarify: these were approaches where I got into a legitimate conversation with the woman for at least several minutes. So it does not include quick approaches that didn’t hook. Moreover I was selecting very specific women in very specific circumstances–typically stationary women (either standing in place or sitting down), who were alone, which really cut down on my options.
My overall, long term date success rate seems stuck right around that 10% mark. However, I stress again context matters. In certain situations and venues, I have a much higher success rate than in others.
It’s just a question of what kinds of women you’re approaching, and what you’re trying to get.
Social circle game will always deliver a higher success rate for everything (kissing, dates, sex), because of the greater comfort/ familiarity.October 18, 2014 at 11:30 pm #72025
I was browsing through the forum and I chanced upon this topic from quite some time ago. I am now at 340 approaches, still 0%. Got a few more hundred to the 1000 mark. Then I give up 😀
It is quite shocking that even guys who are good at this get into dates with less than half of the women they approach.
ZhelyazkoOctober 18, 2014 at 11:50 pm #72026SomeguyUKParticipant
“It is quite shocking that even guys who are good at this get into dates with less than half of the women they approach.”
What percentage of women that guys approach have boyfriends though? It could easily be 50%.
I think when you consider all the possible external variables that can affect your chances of getting a date, a rate of 1/10 is pretty good.October 20, 2014 at 3:35 pm #72076uadialejParticipant
Numbers don’t count. Dates do. Glenn once told me something that I think is very accurate. Game aside, he asked me what fraction of women I thought I was compatible with. He pointed out how small that number must be. I realized that he’s right.October 20, 2014 at 7:01 pm #72083SomeguyUKParticipant
Show me some random guy at a party and I’m going to be very skeptical that he’s funny, interesting, kind, and accomplished enough to be my friend. Why should I apply a different standard to meeting a woman?
Lee, just as a side question, does anyone ever get annoyed at you for saying this stuff? Cos I would never say to a guy (for example) “You’re an IT guy in London? Shocking.” That would practically be fighting talk.October 20, 2014 at 7:14 pm #72084dyonisosParticipant
I was browsing through the forum and I chanced upon this topic from quite some time ago. I am now at 340 approaches, still 0%. Got a few more hundred to the 1000 mark. Then I give up
340 and 0 girls interested in you? And this is in a span of one year. I would say you are doing something wrong then.October 20, 2014 at 7:29 pm #72085
I get turned down all the time, but angry reactions? Almost never.
We don’t normally challenge guys that we are evaluating for potential friendship, but neither are they used to getting a ton of validation from us. If the first few sentences of the conversation are boring, you’d probably leave. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of men are not looking for a more dominant friend, and the comparison becomes a little strained.
Desirable women are looking for the most dominant men, and will even challenge you to see how you handle yourself under that kind of pressure. If you don’t challenge them back, they will assume you don’t have enough beauty in your life.
–LeeOctober 20, 2014 at 8:02 pm #72086
1 in 2 is an impossible target. At 1 in 21 and three approaches per day, you’d get one real contact every week, and, according to some statistical analysis I ran (more on that if anyone wants to hear), a relationship (10+ dates with the same person) every 9 months or so. That’s not at all bad considering that some of these relationships are going to overlap. Besides these relationships, if you allocate at most three days per week for dates, after about 6 months, your schedule would be full. In other words, unless there are no repeat dates, it’s not really possible to be much better than 1 in 21 and still have time to date all the women you meet. For a relatively attractive young man with decent gaming skills, 1 in 21 is very achievable. So, why aren’t you getting results? When I hear stories like 340 and zero, two things come to mind. The more important of the two is body language. You’re doing something that is sabotaging your approach and only a coach standing close to you can tell you what it is. Unless you have an obvious physical deformity, those numbers are not possible without bad body language. The second thing that comes to mind is that you’re all over the place with what you’ve tried. That’s the impression I get from reading your posts here. A coach would never allow that. He’d choose one type of approach for you and you’d practice it until it started to pay off. I have an idea for you, but we should discuss it offline. Write to me at firstname.lastname@example.org
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