Randomness? Or bad statistics?
August 19, 2014 at 5:20 pm #71451
As has been pointed out by many, there is so much noise in social dynamics that it is hard – based simply on one’s own experience – to come to any conclusions about what works and what doesn’t.
Part of the problem is that the guys who are out there are not social scientists and don’t know how to manage large scale statistics and noise. However, this doesn’t mean that human behavior is random. It just means that a lot of data is required to figure out what’s going on.
We don’t have access to each other’s data, but we do have access to serious academic studies. What follows is my list of the most relevant studies.
Delicious uncertainty – In an online dating experiment, women were more attracted to men who showed less interest in them and less attracted to men who were more committed. This article explains the study: http://consumer.healthday.com/mental-health-information-25/behavior-health-news-56/playing-hard-to-get-may-get-the-girl-study-finds-649307.html
Discounting the seeker – In a study of speed dating, women were more selective than men when women sat in one place and men moved from table to table – men were the seekers – and less selective than men when men sat in one place and women moved from table to table – women were forced to be the seekers. This article explains the study: http://theconversation.com/women-act-like-men-when-they-switch-seats-at-speed-dating-20730
Non-responsive men – In this study of dating, women preferred men that are not responsive. Researchers hypothesized that women view a responsive man as more vulnerable and less dominant. This article explains the study: http://www.livescience.com/47010-why-men-prefer-nice-women.html
Disengaged behavior – In this study, test subjects viewing a video of body language correctly guessed the socioeconomic status of the participants based on whether they exhibited more or less disengagement behavior. Disengagement behavior included doodling, a little fidgeting, and LESS eye contact. The conclusion? People who have a higher socioeconomic status exhibit more disengagement behavior. Here is the study: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090204121515.htm
Here is my five cents.
In general, all markets devalue the seeker while compensating the counter-party. Consider the bid-ask spread in financial markets. The liquidity taker – the person who initiates the trade – gets, on average, a less favorable price, while the liquidity provider – the person who agrees to accept the trade – gets, on average, a more favorable price.
As the above studies show, this effect holds for social dynamics as much as it holds for financial markets.
Takeaway? Don’t show women a lot of interest. Question their value. Challenge them. Reverse the power dynamic so that you’re not the seeker.
–LeeAugust 19, 2014 at 7:12 pm #71453
Don’t show women a lot of interest? bs. I can’t take this wrong information. That’s what society wants you to believe but it’s WRONG, “play hard to get”. That shit was played out during early 2000s with mystery method and style. Because I fell for that trap for so long and I spun my tail around bullshit. KNOW WHAT YOU WANT AND SEEK IT. and when you finally find it, don’t act like you don’t want it. that’s false. Give her a big hug and make sure she knows you picked her!
all randomness means that when you approach people, you are just not aware of their circumstances. accept that people are random and rejections mean NOTHING. all it means is that person’s parameters were not aligned with yours.
woman#1: she’s pretty? check! but doesnt she like me. uncheck!
woman#2: she’s pretty? check! but she has a bf. uncheck!
woman#3: she’s pretty? check! but I found out I don’t like her. uncheck!
woman#4: she’s pretty? check! do i like her and she likes me and she doesn’t have bf? check! DING DING DING. we have a winner.
woman#4: oh god I want to meet her now. Is she here this weekend? uncheck!
woman#5: and on and on…
depending on your parameters, and how picky you are you can go thru hundreds of women. We don’t have time to spend on all the wrong ones though.
All I mean by random is does she meet your criterions or not? People are in different points in their life. That’s the most important thing. Move to the next one if she doesn’t. as fast as possible. we don’t have time otherwise.
You don’t need bullshit stories or making her laugh, or act like you’re not interested, you just need to figure out their situation and move on if it doesn’t fit yours. There’s so many hours in the day. You’ll find that if you approach 10 women daygame, 5 of them have a bf. no amount of lines will change that or opener, or whatever you use will change that. You got “rejected” before you even opened your damn mouth. So just make sure you figure that right away. I just ask “are you single?” or I just go for the number, the sooner the better because I don’t want to waste time with them if they have a bf. So out of 10 girls, 5 are left – no matter what you even say to them 50% are out! Out of those 5, for some reason 3 won’t like you because you’re not in their age bracket, you don’t fit what they like, they think your approach was bad, or some other bullshit reason. So we’re left with 2 that give you the number.
With those 2 you message them a few days later. One is going on a trip to the bahamas on the weekend so she can’t meet. Another one is going out with her friends but she’ll see you the next day. DING DING DING! now repeat the process, this time approach a hundred girls. If you’re in NYC this shouldn’t be a problem. The only problem is if you’re taking too damn long and doing mental masturbation with each girl instead of being true for what you want and seeing if she fits the bill or not.
Don’t try to make people “like you”. It’s absurd that guys think that that’s women want. Women want to know that you’re a MAN that has a GOAL and if she doesn’t fit that goal SHE IS OUT.
know what you want in life, and screen out the ones that don’t fit what you want. Everything else is mental masturbation. We don’t have time for ANY thing else. Time is precious goddamit. I know I said that I wasn’t gonna post anymore but this is SO IMPORTANT that I am just saying this to newbies because they can’t afford to waste as much time as I did.
Watch this an watch it closely. And understand what screening means. It’s basically deciding if the woman fits your parameters and if she doesn’t. NEXT. there is no “rejection”. Men, realize this as soon as possible and don’t get caught up in the trap like something is wrong with you.
This guy isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed. He even looks like a “creeper”, yet he cleans up bc women are attracted to a man that goes for what he wants and doesnt beat around the bush. And as soon as I employed what he is teaching I cleaned up too.
August 19, 2014 at 11:18 pm #71454
btw, 5 approaches 3 nums today daygame. and to your point, it’s not so much about “disinterest” it’s about conveying to them that you’re a man with many options. this is conveyed through body language and just saying whatever comes off the top of your head when you approach them (along with asking them out) and just having a “this is not a big deal to me” attitude. that’s what always gets ’em 🙂August 19, 2014 at 11:27 pm #71455Eric DiscoKeymaster
Why is it that “just saying whatever comes off the top of your head” sounds awfully familiar?
So what’s your name?
Where are you from?
What do you do?
Basically what you’re saying is that you can get women without using any game. None of us here is disagreeing with you. I don’t doubt that with enough approaches you can get a certain percentage of women to say ‘yes.’ We are all in agreement about that. That’s a large percentage of this. The more women you approach, the more women will say yes to you. If you can’t approach any, none will come to you. 100% agreement.
Lee is talking about REFINING the percentage of women that will say YES. You could approach 100 women. 65 will say NO no matter what. 15 will say YEs no matter what. 20 will be attracted/open to you but on the fence. Lee is talking about refining your approach to get those last 20 women. Maybe those women who were previously out of your league.
EricAugust 20, 2014 at 12:19 am #71456
hey Eric, nice to see you. I know where he’s coming from as far as refining. But I have found that the more I try to make things “smooth” the more the girl gets turned off. I say this as one of your past students that went into the wild for 2 years and came back to the forum to share my experiences.
plus, the more I try to make things smooth the less approaches I make which is a death sentence for daygame. When I say things off the top of my head it isn’t “safe” things as the questions you’ve indicated. it’s more like something I’d say to a very close personal friend or just say whatever the hell I want to, half the time I don’t give it a second thought.. so my direct approaches are like “excuse me? yeah.. you just have such a great figure. i had to say hello”. or if it’s indirect it’s usually something out of the ordinary like tapping her if she’s in the subway next to me and asking her what music she’s listening to..
In your book for example (which is an awesome book for starting out – and one of my favorites), the problem is it comes across a bit too “safe”. now I find I can just ask them out right away, no fluff whatsoever. and i’m not talking about low quality girls here. I only talk to stunning looking girls..
they flake less when they know you’re not there to waste their time. Same in nightgame. If you’re not physically escalating girls don’t want ANYTHING to do with you. they don’t want the safe or intelligent guy. they want the guy that makes them wet, who dares to say or do the thing that they don’t experience from other guys..
well I’m sure you guys already know this, and perhaps we’re just having a miscommunication here..
of’course I wouldn’t say “what do you do, where are you from”. I’m saying the opposite. Kind of like.. you approach them, comment about their legs.. or an indirect, ask them where they’re going to (if she’s just walking past you). or if you’re on a date, just be very touchy and flirty off the bat.. and unfiltered. like, the less social conventions you use the better, that’s what I mean. so she’s left wondering like “woww, who is this guy!”
but I’m not gonna act “uninterested”, like take my time to reply to her or act a certain way FOR her. that doesn’t make sense to me at all. if anything, I’ll do everything a guy that was interested in them does but I’ll take it to a new level. for example, insta-day-lays. things they’ve never seen before. they love that kind of stuff.
perhaps you guys mean showing disinterest in your body language or your subcommunication? to that I agree. but that just comes naturally cause I know I could meet another one any time I wanted by just approaching more. maybe that’s what you guys mean.August 20, 2014 at 3:46 am #71458
As the above studies show, there is NOTHING random about the behavior of women. There is randomness in the behavior of any one particular woman on one particular day, but that is not what we’re here to talk about and study.
All of these studies (and more) – performed independently by different researchers in different institutions – agree on what we should do to be most attractive to women. That is the basis of my game. There is NO STUDY supporting your game. It’s all just a bunch of guys on the Internet swapping stories about their conquests with no methodology at all.
The idea that women are looking for the same thing as men is crazy. As has been pointed out by researchers studying human sexuality, there is one male prostitute for every 200,000 female prostitutes.
The best way to get the hottest women to try hard to go out with you is not by SHOWING disinterest but by ACTUALLY FEELING DISINTEREST. Then, what you are showing and what you are doing is actually completely congruent. You should show interest only to women who are showing interest to you. The more selective you are in meeting women – the more you question and challenge them and the higher your standards for them (beyond the physical) – the more attractive you will be to them. Does it work the same way for guys? As the above study on responsiveness on dates explains, absolutely not.
The idea of my kind of game is not – as you keep misinterpreting – to get women to like you. That’s what the ass-kissers in the three videos you posted are doing by complimenting the shit out of those plain, ordinary, boring girls who are actually not nearly as attractive as the guys approaching them. The idea of my game is to get women to give YOU a reason to like them. If you actually saw me in an approach – as many people on this site have – you’d never again accuse me of trying to get women to like me, at least not when compared to the ass powdering I saw in those videos. (Not a single hardball question or observation!)
–LeeAugust 20, 2014 at 2:29 pm #71459
frankly, I think we’re just having a miscommunication here we’d probably agree to alot of the same things.
also our definition of “random” is different. I’m mainly talking about what a woman is going through in her life (ie her logistics, does she have a bf, does she need to go on a trip this weekend, etc) and you’re talking about her general behavior / what turns her on. those are two different things.
also, as long as you’re authentically not interested in a woman because the girl hasn’t “proved” herself worthy otherwise, I’m in total agreement. I just wasn’t in agreement to “act” like you’re not interested, especially if you are. so as long as you’re acting in (and forgive me for this community word–>) “congruence” with your internal feelings then I totally agree… my only worry is instructing guys that are completely horrible with women to act like they have alot of things going on in their life; or giving a guy a “story” when his verbal communication is dogshit, b/c women can see through that right away. it’s like the way mystery used to instruct guys to say his scripts but they just couldn’t pull it off b/c it didn’t match who they are as a person. I think everyone just needs to be 100% true to who they are to attract girls, that’s all I’m saying..August 20, 2014 at 4:42 pm #71460
If you have as many women in your life as you’re telling us, I bet you are doing many of these things I’m talking about. You’re not projecting a need. Women who talk to you know you have other options. So, no, our disagreements are smaller than it would appear from this long debate.
Nevertheless, think about the definition of natural and honest. Is telling girls their name is so cool and asking them about music venues honest? Let’s go even deeper. Is it natural to tell a girl she’s cute? You may actually think they’re cute, but telling it to them is like walking up to Michael Phelps and telling him you think he’s a pretty good swimmer. If you were truly being yourself, you’d never actually do that. He knows he’s the greatest swimmer in the world and he knows you know it too.
So why do men tell girls they’re cute and compliment their clothes and their names and the city they come from? It’s a lame attempt to ingratiate themselves with these women, to get these women to like them.
Now, let’s look at the other side of the spectrum entirely. Let’s look at what I do. Take that 17 year old in that video. Way too young for me, but let’s say I’m doing that set as a demo and we’re already in conversation. She tells me she’s 17. This is something I might say: “You know, when I was 17, the only novels I read were the ones assigned to me in school. Is that you?”
First, it’s absolutely true. Second, it partially reverses the power dynamic by letting her know what I find important and putting her on notice that she’s not going to slide by on her looks alone. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, what I want to know is this: do you really believe that my question is less honest and natural than showering her with compliments or, like Janka, asking her where he should go that night when, in fact he went to Harvard and knows the Boston nightlife like the back of his hand?
I’m a big reader. It’s a real concern to me that she won’t be able to hang. Is it something I’ve rehearsed? Yes, but why shouldn’t I rehearse it. It, and many other things that are important to me, are going to come up again and again – in fact, with almost every woman I meet. Why should I lie to her about things that don’t matter to me just to avoid repeating the conversations that do matter to me?
Ryano, you have it all backwards. It’s the guys who are trying to be “natural” who all sound like clones of each other – nice name, nice piercing, nice outfit, where can I find a blah blah blah, do you know how to cook spaghetti, etc. When you have conversations about everyday things, that’s what happens. It’s boring, you don’t find out much about the other person, and you don’t get across the idea that you have high standards, standards that she hasn’t yet shown you she’s met.
My conversations with women are unique to what matters to me. My students’ conversations with women are unique to what matters to them. Do we spend time time thinking about those things and talking about the best ways to bring them into the conversation? Absolutely. But if you want to talk about honesty, what I do is much, much more honest than the guys in these videos who are having the same trivial conversations with women and either outright lying or kissing ass.
–LeeAugust 20, 2014 at 5:04 pm #71462
alright, looks like we’re pretty similar after all in our thought process. I think I just “define” it differently.
When I was talking about “random” earlier it was mainly about logistics. But to me logistics is the utmost important thing in pickup. It trumps everything pretty much. So what do I mean about logistics? And this might be MY specific definition, but let me just define what I mean:
1. is this girl single? (because if she isn’t I just walk away). this is very important because in a daygame situation I found that about half have boyfriends. so I can’t waste my time with those that do. my time is more valuable to me than ANY girl.
2. do I like this girl? based on *MY* specific and unique set of parameters are important to ME (because if I don’t I just walk away. and to give you an example, I approached a girl this lunch but because she was such a bonehead and non-creative and kept asking be banal questions like what I do/where I work etc I ended up ejecting.. and I think this is where you and I can see eye to eye here) other things I look for: how hot she is, how interesting she is, is she humorous, is she fun to talk to, etc. side note: if she’s super hot, like playboy hot I pretty much forgive her for being a bonehead because I just want her sexually.. but if she’s not that hot she must have a personality that makes up for it.
3. does she like me? this is also where I think your argument comes in. I try to make myself the most attractive I can by my style, my fitness level (bc I like to work out), my confidence, my humor, basically my unique personality. I also try to tease her and create a sexual vibe around the whole interaction (assuming I like her) because I noticed that’s what girls get attracted to. but if after all that still doesn’t like me for who I am I could care less. I just approach another one who does.
so what I mean by random, everytime I walk into a park, or a starbucks, or the street, or wherever I am. it’s like God threw a pair of dice in the world: i.e a new configuration of people. and this configuration of people may or may not match me.
it’s like forest gump in that movie said “life is like a bunch of chocolates you never know what you’re gonna get!” — that’s what I meant by random… but I also know that if I don’t like what I get I can sure as hell replace it with another one that I do like or that fits me better.
p.s of’course what you were saying, what girls are “attracted” to is not that random. girls share a bunch of the same characteristics ie attraction switches.
p.p.s Paul was in Austin when he filmed that video mainly because the rules in Austin are more lax in regards to recording laws.August 20, 2014 at 5:14 pm #71463
oh and what you were saying about telling vs not telling a woman she’s good looking or complimenting her outfit, etc. I don’t agree with that. I can’t tell you how many women I’ve slept with thru direct approaches. women LOVE compliments. I also agree with the indirect approach too though. both can work equally well. the opener doesn’t matter at all really.August 20, 2014 at 8:38 pm #71471
“p.p.s Paul was in Austin when he filmed that video mainly because the rules in Austin are more lax in regards to recording laws.”
Really? And did he wind up checking out that piercing place she recommended? Or take her advice as to where to go for music that night? Do you see what I mean, dude? There’s nothing particularly genuine about it.
What I do is genuine. I tell real stories based on my real life experiences. These stories help girls open up about their thoughts and experiences. I ask tough questions, questions that help me understand girls while at the same time revealing what is important to me.
My stories and questions put girls on notice that they’re not getting a free ride based entirely on their looks. Beyond looks and confidence, that’s what those studies show makes men more attractive to women, the idea that they’re still making up their minds about whether they like the woman standing in front of them. The quicker you make up your mind and the less information you have by the time you do it, the less attractive you will be to the women you approach.
What I talk about is real. Nothing is made up. It’s stuff that’s not going to be less important to me on approach number 10,000 than it was on approach number 100. If the stories don’t change and my preferences don’t change – at least not in the short term – why should I have to say it differently every time? Just to maintain the illusion of spontaneity? That would be the biggest lie of all.
One last point. Here’s the way compliments work. When you compliment a woman, you get points for balls, especially on the approach. Obviously, that’s a positive. If you continue to compliment her without expressing your own specific preferences for what you want – a smart girl, a reader, a creative girl, etc. – you start to lose points. If, by the end of the interaction, all you’ve done is told her how amazing she is and haven’t convinced her that you have standards she has yet to meet, you better be damn good looking or have some other source of status or power because, otherwise, your value will go to zero.
What those studies show is that there is a sweet spot, an area in between where she knows you’re kinda interested but not completely sold. The article calls it “delicious uncertainty”. It’s not only the most attractive strategy for a man but also the correct way for a high value man to behave. It takes months to really get to know someone, so high value men – men who have lots of romantic options – are not going to make up their minds so quickly. Only men who have few romantic options are going to give a woman immediate certainty. Women know that and find such men less attractive.
–LeeAugust 20, 2014 at 10:50 pm #71473
So you think it makes you a “genuine” person when you keep rehashing the same old stories to every single girl? Give me a break dude. To me that’s as bad as having a “line”. I bet you anything that if a girl could see you rehashing the same thing to another girl she would drop you like a bad habit. You know it and I know it. Because you don’t come across as genuine when you do that. You come across as a script kiddie.
As far as Paul is concerned, you forgot to mention that he also had a camera pointed to him and he was merely talking to her for the sake of monetary benefit for the product that he later sold. So of’course he was a fraud as far as the girl is concerned. Paul’s confidence and demeanor is rock solid though, you can’t deny that. And his coolness and improvisation skills are legendary. Show me ONE other guy in the game that came make up so much bullshit on the fly and pull it off flawlessly. and one can only get to that skill level after thousands of approaches.
Oh yeah, and do you think Eric really doesn’t know how to spell connoisseur or where central park is? But hell I don’t fault him for that.
When it comes down to it ALL IS FAIR in love and war. ESPECIALLY ON THE APPROACH.
After you’ve been on a date with her, that’s when one can appear more genuine.August 21, 2014 at 3:09 am #71478
Whether you rehearse it or not, if you tell a story enough, it will start coming out the same way – maybe with very minor variation – each and every time. I tell stories about my childhood, my family, my social life. These are things that are NOT going to change. Why should I tell them differently every time? At this point, it would take infinitely more effort to try to tell them differently than to just tell them the way I’ve been telling them for years. I tell these stories because they are so much more interesting and valuable than talking about the weather. They reveal important things about me and they get girls to open up about themselves. If you want someone to open up to you, you have to go first. Simply shooting a bunch of questions at them is not going to do it. Of course, the alternative is to ask about piercings and music venues or just shower girls with compliments, but then you walk away literally knowing nothing important about them. When you know nothing about them and still ask to see them again, you are so much less interesting to them than when you have some standards that go beyond their physical appearance. That’s why I think all of these pickup examples you posted are really bad. Beyond the purely physical – where these men had a clear advantage – none of them managed to find out anything about these women.
–LeeAugust 21, 2014 at 10:37 pm #71492zhelyazkoParticipant
Very informative article, Lee.
I love it how you nerd out on this stuff 😀
ZAugust 21, 2014 at 10:54 pm #71493zhelyazkoParticipant
I think my mindset is slowly starting to change, becoming genuinely more selective. Still want to get laid though 🙂
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