"No outcome" vs using "game"

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    One distinction I have always found difficult to get right is how do I stay in the “no outcome” mindset while also purposefully doing things to get a girl to like me?

    Is this something simple that can be explained in a few sentences or is it a skill that is learned over time?

    Kind Regards,


    @Zhel I love this question–I think about it a lot and I’m going to spew out my take in it before the poobahs get here 🙂

    The reason you’re confused is because “outcome independence” and “not giving a fuck” is actually one of the biggest and most pervasive myths of the pickup “world”. The idea that you can sit there and devote hours and hours of every day, your entire life, to mastering something as oddly specific as talking to a girl on a street corner, post on board after board about it, keep spreadsheets about it, etc. means that every one of us is absolutely, 100% outcome independent. Insanely outcome independent. The more you claim you’re not outcome dependent, that you “don’t give a fuck”, the more nonsensical it actually sounds. Yes, “PUAs” give a fuck—a HUGE one.

    OF COURSE you give a fuck. And that’s fine–we all do. It’s human to care about how people respond to you–if you don’t, you’ve got some sociopathic tendencies. There are some people who try really hard to psychologically override the fact that they actually do care, and while they might get laid on occasion they’re also often very disturbed. You don’t want to try to overwrite your psyche–your subconscious knows it’s a lie and you’ll pay for it. There are a lot of strange “PUAs” out there–and this is one of the reasons for it.

    But–you DO want to be outcome independent. So what’s a HEALTHY way to look at “outcome independence”? The idea–the mentally sane one–is that you shouldn’t need be defining yourself based on how others respond to you. If a girl shoots you down, that shouldn’t be a reason for you to have a bad rest-of-the-day. It also shouldn’t be a reason for you to not ask someone else out half an hour later. If rejections are making you lose your appetite and stay in bed for a week, something’s not right. Girls who you don’t know really aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things. They’re inconsequential–just as you’re inconsequential to them. Do To you, YOU should be the most important thing. Not in a selfish, mean way–just in the idea that the only person you can really influence is yourself.


    Sounds like you’re asking how it’s possible to both want something to happen and not care about whether it happens. You should care about the outcome of the sum of your efforts to meet someone, but should you care about the outcome of one approach? Why should you care? I literally know nothing about the girl I’m approaching. The only thing I know is that she’s sexy. Would I want to spend even a few hours with her because of that? No. I certainly don’t know if I want to date her. She’s just not that important in my life, at least not at that point. Is meeting SOMEONE I can love important? Of course. Is meeting THIS girl important? Not very.



    First acting is required.
    And acting is a necessary part in many aspects of our lives. For example policeman stops you. You act a little. You give an interview. You act a little. Etc etc. It can be even very enjoying to do so with girls. How much is up to you. Mess it up and next time you will be better.
    Second boost your confidence by being around chicks that like you. Some girls like musicians. Others like body builders. Etc etc. If you are around these girls you get attention and some flirting and you can be really cool when you want to hit that higher standard girl.


    From your responses I think that the following can be summarized:
    Yes, you do care about the long term effects of your actions, but you do not care about the outcome of any individual interaction, simply because no single girl is of importance to you. You are very skeptical a girl will be good enough for you.

    I’m trying to sexually escalate, banter, etc. all those stuff, but actually I don’t care if it works and she likes me. Right?

    Which is all fine, but I still want to sleep with a girl even if she is not dating material.

    And that fucks me up because it makes me care too much about the outcome of the interaction.

    I feel like, how do I not care about the outcome of a particular interaction, while at the same time I AM trying to pick her up (as in I want to fuck her). What is the mindset that sits behind it?


    In what way do you mess up? What do you do that betrays your need?



    Hi Lee,

    I though about it for a long time and I think it boils down to the following. A lot of it is how I feel, but I did identify some behavioral mistakes as well.

    1- I initiate stuff more than she does; she will not write to me or invite me out or come speak to me at a party, if part of my social circle (after I have already approached her)
    2- I banter too much (trying to be funny, looking for a reaction from her)
    3- I get nervous (voice tone, body language, etc. etc.)
    4- I find it difficult to escalate (which just boggles me, why it is the case)

    -I feel like I am the one trying to win her over
    -I want to spend time with her, even though she has not showed me any other interesting qualities

    Thank you.



    I don’t have to say anything here. You’ve done a really good job of analyzing your mistakes. Wait till I get you in my clutches. The first thing we’re going to do is work on that body language, and the rest will follow. Your insights are the first step to change so don’t worry. This is the right direction.




    Thanks, Lee. I can’t wait


    “how do I stay in the “no outcome” mindset while also purposefully doing things to get a girl to like me”

    Of’course you should have an outcome. And furthermore, don’t try and make girls like you. This whole bullshit I see time and time again is why guys don’t get laid. They think they need to “act busy” or “act like they’re not interested” or weird things like that.

    As far as being “detached” that’s different. The reason why you should be detached “ie not mad when a girl doesn’t respond to you or rejects you etc” is just a basic understanding that people prioritize things in their lives and you may or may not be that priority at that certain point in time. That doesn’t mean that you’re low value or that you need to do something “different” it just means that you need to accept the fact that people don’t always throw everything aside to be with you.

    A personal coach of mine Paul Janka once told me, “consistent results only come in aggregate” meaning, you do not get a consistent result from a single girl, so she in and of herself is not important; rather, you get consistent results from pinging many girls at all times. (Until one becomes your girlfriend at that point she becomes a little bit more consistent). But if you’re just talking about dating here, and having sex with girls, you won’t get any if you see each interaction, each approach as anything special. Meaning, if you told me you approached 1 girl I’d think to myself that your chances of success are low, but if you approached 100 girls then I’d be like “ok, now we have something of more substance here”. You will never get results from a single interaction. Girls are inherently flakey and fickle. It’s the way they are, until they actually fall for a guy. Which may take several dates and depends more on your personal connection with her.

    Also you need to just be true to yourself. What do you want? Do you want to have sex with a hot girl? (I bet you do). Well then be confident and give her the option to have sex with you.

    As far as the behaviors you have listed, especially:
    “3- I get nervous (voice tone, body language, etc. etc.)
    4- I find it difficult to escalate (which just boggles me, why it is the case)”

    These will kill you. If you don’t escalate with a girl, guess what happens? NOTHING.

    I said that girls do not have the capability to escalate with a man, so it’s all on you. The biggest tip I can give you is to be comfortable touching a girl, putting your hand on her legs, grabbing her hand, leading her. Kissing her on the neck, going for the close. I can’t tell you how important this is. You can approach thousands of girls but if you don’t escalate I can assure you that your conversations with them will be pleasant but then they will simply leave and never see you again. Make sure you polarize women by escalating, because at all times you need to see “who’s in, and who’s out”.

    If you’re not doing that I can guarantee you will NOT see any results whatsoever. Don’t buy into trying to paint yourself as “high value” or acting busy when you’re not. Be true and honest to yourself and to the girl, respond to her texts right away. Don’t play bullshit games. Make sure she understands your intent LOUD AND CLEAR.

    As far as what you said:
    “1- I initiate stuff more than she does; she will not write to me or invite me out or come speak to me at a party, if part of my social circle (after I have already approached her)”

    That is completely normal. Women don’t initiate anything. and if you wait for them to initiate something you’ll be waiting a very long time (a lifetime really). Women have incredibly low self esteem (even though they portray themselves as confident) and they will never initiate anything for the fear of being rejected or being let down. So they just let the man do everything. and I do mean EVERYTHING.

    approaching, getting a number, messaging her first, deciding where to go on a date, escalating with her, flirting with her, inviting her to your apartment, etc. Women love to say that they’re “equals” with men but in the dating/romance realm the two sexes are completely different. They are wallpapers. They will just sit there with you and zip their mouth and will wait for you to do everything. So do yourself a favor and just get out of your own head and start escalating and approaching MANY women. Don’t trust in singular results or start questioning what you did “wrong”. Know your intent, have a goal and go for it. Everything else is just a waste of your time.


    ryano I appreciate your response, but when you tell me “just escalate” that does not help me as it does not show me how to get from I’m afraid and don’t know exactly how to do it now to I am escalation machine.

    What are the manageable steps along the way (you know if you were expecting someone to play the guitar you need to show him step by step)

    Kind Regards,


    ok here’s a quick rundown of escalation.

    first, you need to make sure you flirt with the girl. by flirt I mean you’re keeping the interaction non-serious. Just light and playful, and sexual. And above all, you make it clear to the girl that you are interested in having sex with her.

    You don’t say “I’d like to have sex with you”, especially not in the beginning of the interaction before you’ve actually escalated. (After you’ve escalated the sky is the limit on what you can say really, you can say some pretty dirty shit actually).

    But generally girls like implicit directness. So you basically look at her like you want to bone her, and you say things like “c’mooooon let’s have a drink. it’ll be fun.” sorta thing. With a smirk.

    But above all do not, I repeat DO NOT, talk about average everyday banalaties like “what do you do, where do you work” and keep it serious like that. or talk to her like it’s an interview. there’s nothing that ruins an interaction quicker than that.

    So basically, keep strong eye contact. Have a little smirk, and tell her what you want to do with her. It’s important to say things like it’s a command. it works wonders. so you take a girl and you say “let’s sit over there. come on follow me.” sort of thing.

    basically get her used to you leading/commanding shit. This is important because it’ll make the physical escalation a whole hell of a lot easier. she needs to feel like you’re taking charge basically. an example that comes to mind is a vid i posted a while back. this kid has commanding to a T, even though he’s a highschooler he understands that girls like dominance. he overdoes it and i’m not saying to it like this exactly. but the underlying meaning behind it is powerful.

    on the other hand, if you’re timid and weak and then physically escalate it just makes everything so much more awkward.

    upto now we’ve just set the groundwork for what you do. once you’ve established that you’re the dominant it gives you the “excuse” to do certain physical escalations.

    For example, say you open the door for her now you can put your hand on the small of her back as she walks in the door.

    Or say you’re at a bar and you’ve told the girl that you want to get her a drink. you say “c’mon let’s go grab a drink together.” and you say it like a command, that gives you the greenlight to just take her by the hand and lead her to the bar.

    When you’re sitting next to the girl and you’ve established a dominant frame it’s a lot easier to now just take her hand and examine her rings like “what’s this, where’s this from?” with a smirk… or even rest your hand on her thigh periodically, like when you’re emphasizing a point. again, this is all due to being dominant from the beginning. that’s what makes it all work.

    you basically need to get her used to you touching her. here’s a few examples of how when to touch a girl

    – I open a girl and I touch her on the shoulder “excuse me?”
    – I ask her about her outfit and I might even tug on it. like “nice coat, what fabric is this?”
    – I ask her about her rings or necklace.
    – I put my hand on her back as I’m talking to her, when we’re both standing. for example at a bar.
    – I just hold her hand as we’re talking.

    if you want examples of how to touch/when to touch watch any russell brand interviews. here’s an example:

    pay attention to 1:58 3:01 5:02 6:02 

    basically start touching her any way you can. at this point you can start verbally escalating. you can talk to her about her dating life. you can even ask her questions like if she’s an adventurous person, if she’s reserved, if she’s sexual, if she’s open minded. then you just keep bringing the conversation deeper into the gutter. if she’s open sexually she’ll let you do that.

    a good barometer of how well you’re escalating is if you get a hard on. if you’re limp the entire time talking to her, she is most likely dry too. usually when I physically escalate, ie I hold her hand or I talk about dirty things with her i’m usually really turned on and so is she.

    This then gives you the ability to just ask her over to your apartment for “a drink”. it’s really hard to do this if you haven’t turned her on. the idea in escalation is basically to try and get the girl horny. once she’s horny there’s really no turning back for her…

    anyway, hope this helped a bit feel free to ask if something isnt clear.

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