Lee's Pet Peeves and Fallacies of Social Dynamics
October 2, 2014 at 3:27 pm #71712
1) Pet peeve: Good looking guys – especially coaches – who tell the rest of us that looks don’t matter and it doesn’t take much effort to meet girls. This guy is my favorite new example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m6P9NotEr8. Watch the end of his video where he tells you to get some great abs. What a scam! Of course looks matter. Many other things matter, too, as well as behaviors that can be used to overcome a deficit in looks. That doesn’t change the fact that, all else held equal, looks matter a lot.
2) Pet peeve: Pickup videos that show guys getting numbers. Biggest scam on the planet. Coaches take a million of these and cherry pick the best ones. Worse, newbies can’t really tell when a girl in a video isn’t responding well. If you see a guy doing all the talking and a girl is just answering his questions and giving him a bit of giggling, that set is going nowhere. Any number he gets is likely to be worthless. Those of us who have experienced good sets – sets in which girls are actually trying to make a connection with us – know that even some of those sets will flake. It’s ten times worse with sets where the guy is doing all the work. Coaches can be the biggest scammers here because they know how not to get blown out. They talk and talk and talk until they have created a friendly, relaxed, non-sexual vibe, then go for the number. After all that chit chat, it’s less awkward for the girl to give the number than to say no, but it doesn’t mean that there’s any interest whatsoever. Coaches know that newbies can’t tell whether a girl is giving out a number just to avoid an awkward situation, so they keep cranking out these promotional videos because, to newbies, what they’re doing looks like magic. Scams!
3) Pet peeve: The advice to just be confident. Cognitive behavioral therapists don’t tell people who are afraid of heights to just not be afraid of heights. It’s impossible to cure approach anxiety by just willing yourself not to have approach anxiety. You have to spend months or years doing one approach after another, until your fear naturally goes away. That’s what behavioral therapists do with people who fear heights. They make them get on a little stool, then a higher stool, then stairs, then buildings, then mountains, then planes… but gradually. Don’t trivialize your fears. They are real. Treat them as real and work on them gradually until they go away.
4) Fallacy: Status doesn’t matter. Of course status matters! A Duke University study found that for a deficit of every inch a man had to make $30,000 more in income to be equally attractive. Yes, 5’4” = 6’2” when the shorter man makes $300,000 more. We can put this in the category of “looks matter” or we can put this in the category of income – or rather the status associated with a higher income – matters. If you don’t believe that status matters and you have two beautiful female friends who are willing to play along, try taking them to a bar and running your usual game on other girls. You will find that social proof and preselection shockingly elevate the success of your game.
5) Pet peeve: The advice to just be natural. Whether you choose to approach by simply saying hello or you have an elaborate opener that leads to a story, there is nothing natural about game. Up until a hundred years ago, approaching a woman who wasn’t a family member could cost you your life. Even in polite society, people asked for introductions and met in the presence of chaperones. We’re in a new era, which is why our minds are not programmed for this. That creates both obstacles and opportunities. One example of the obstacles is what we call approach anxiety. Our cortisol levels spike way up when we first attempt to approach women, which proves that we are not naturally good at this. The opportunities are there too: women are not naturally equipped to detect the type of game that allows us to elevate their perception of our value and bypass their defenses.
6) Pet peeve: The advice to just be spontaneous. The paradox of spontaneity is this: the more you talk about what’s important to you, the less spontaneous you’ll be. Why? Because the things you love – reading, travel, your family, movies, whatever – are not changing by the minute. If they’re important to you, and you want to talk about them as a means of finding an interesting and compatible partner, you will eventually wind up saying almost the same thing every time. It doesn’t matter if you rehearse your script or not, if you talk about your favorite book enough, your thoughts about it and the way you discuss it with others will start coming out the same way every time. By definition, important means unchanging. When you start qualifying women on things that really matter to you, magic starts to happen, and part of that magic is that you will suddenly find some of the most attractive women chasing you.
7) Fallacy: Give girls lots of compliments and show interest and they’ll like you more. Wrong! Study after study shows that laughter, too much eye contact, compliments, and constant interest are behaviors associated with lower value men. It totally makes sense. High value men aren’t so easily impressed with beauty. They have plenty of it in their lives. When they approach women, they’re curious, but they’re by no means sold. When beautiful women who are used to dealing with men who are all over them suddenly meet one who seems to be a little uncertain, something magical happens. Actually, it’s not magic at all. Women are really good at detecting the correlates of success – behaviors that are associated with men who will be or are already successful. It’s as important to them as height, good looks, or any of the other elements of attraction. One of the correlates of successful men is that they do not easily commit to one option. Makes perfect sense. They have lots of options. That’s why every academic study of social dynamics shows that being a little skeptical does wonders for your success, especially with the most attractive women.
–LeeOctober 2, 2014 at 3:52 pm #71713CartooxParticipant
Thanks for putting that up Lee
Hahaha…..especially about phone numbers and being natural / spontaneous……October 2, 2014 at 11:23 pm #71714ryanoParticipant
1) Looks matter. But the majority of guys out there seeking advice are usually average to good looking guys that just don’t get laid.
2) Getting numbers is quite possibly the most important skill whether they flake or not, it’s just statistics anyway. I’d advise guys to get atleast one number a day. This is so at the end of the week when you have 7 numbers in which 2-3 or so will get you a date. No numbers = No dates. It’s as simple as that.
3) Completely agree with you on this
4) Sure. But I’m assuming most guys come into this with a college degree and some kind of corporate job. Which is the majority of people in big cities that would most likely be reading a website like this. Beyond that status isn’t important esp if you just want to get laid.
5) Baloney, talking to girls is not that big of a deal. “Minds not programmed for this”. Whatever. Girls love to be talked to and flirted with.
6) I agree with the first part. Although I never liked that word “qualification”. I’d rather go with “screening”. So screening for what you want in a girl.
7) “High value men aren’t so easily impressed with beauty”. Get out of here with that. Men should not repress their sexuality for the sake of political correctness. Men shouldn’t be NEEDY, but they should definitely show interest when they see a woman they are attracted to.October 3, 2014 at 2:48 pm #71715
This has nothing to do with repressing sexuality. If you have plenty of beautiful women in your life, it would be crazy for you to treat each new one as if you have none. Take some movie star – say George Clooney before he got married. It would be crazy for him to chase each hot little seventeen year old aspiring model who asks for his autograph as if he didn’t have an unlimited supply of these. I’m sure that he’d rather spend an evening doing something more interesting. Women know that high value men are selective and it’s an attraction trigger. I’m no George Clooney, but that’s how I feel about girls I meet. Unless there’s something special about them, I’m not going to waste an evening trying to get them into bed. I don’t have that many free evenings left in my life. That sense that I’m not completely sold is what gets women to chase me.
–LeeOctober 3, 2014 at 5:06 pm #71716
Lee. You are amazing. Thank’s for your help. The pick up community is so confusing when you are starting out (like me). It feels good to have someone you can rely on for honest advice. All the best to you.
ZhelyazkoOctober 3, 2014 at 5:25 pm #71717
I often assume that women’s attraction gets triggered pretty much the same way it does with men. You either know if you want to fuck a woman straight away, or not.
If I get you right, women can (and will) change their opinion of you (whether they want to have sex with you) based on whether you demonstrate the “right” qualities/attributes e.g. being sceptical, risk-taking, demonstrating high-value. So it is possible for a girl who does not initially feel attracted to you to become attracted to you based on your behaviour.
Following from this is it necessary that I demonstrate all/most of the desirable qualities to get laid? Meaning if I banter, escalate, talk inappropriate topics is that enough? Or do I also need to Demonstrate Higher Value by some other means e.g. preselection.
Any advice welcome.
ZhelyazkoOctober 3, 2014 at 8:52 pm #71718
I know your question’s directed at Lee, but I just want to jump in to tell you not to fall into the over-game trap either.
Thinking this way: “Hm, I need to add pre-selection (or whatever) to my routine in order to get laid” is a really unhealthy way of looking at it. It means that everything about your identity is based on trying to get a girl. Talk about putting her on a super-high pedestal!
The idea is simply to present yourself as a desirable guy who’s not going to start panting like a lap dog at the first cute girl he sees. That’s where the skepticism comes in. As in “ok, sure you’re cute but so are 50 million girls out there. What makes you so special–are you actually worth my time and energy? Because my time and energy are valuable!
Value is largely internal. If you experience yourself as a desirable guy, you become one externally. That value is more powerful–and far more real–than money, job, etc. It’s also a reason that famous people have so much success–do you think it’s JUST because of the fame? Of course not–there are thousands upon thousands of rich and famous people that can’t get laid to save their lives, good looking or not! But the fame/wealth/status helps them get into a position where they are confident enough to wield that–and THAT’s why they get laid so often. The skepticism that Lee talks about just follows naturally–because there ARE a lot of girls out there who are potentialy available, so choice/selection becomes easier.
You (and all normal guys) can become this type of person too–but it’s much harder to see the pathway sometimes for us normal people 🙂October 4, 2014 at 1:06 pm #71719
Mr. Antiquity’s explanation is correct. For a decent looking guy – not a movie star, but someone already attractive – all you need are confidence and sexual risk-taking. Everything else is a plus, something to strive for in the long run, but not absolutely required to see some success. For older guys and guys who are not in the best shape, these things become more important. Why? Because they help to overcome other deficits. The more checkmarks you have in the plus column the better.
–LeeOctober 4, 2014 at 9:14 pm #71720TedtedParticipant
Best forum ever
“When beautiful women who are used to dealing with men who are all over them suddenly meet one who seems to be a little uncertain, something magical happens.” – has happened to me by accident and yes magic happened and next time I met her she was gazing me badly although she was with her really good looking and rather rich boyfriend.
So trueOctober 5, 2014 at 10:56 am #71721
Thanks guys for the explanations.
What would you say is the best approach. I am able to approach relatively consistently (most girls I see) but often my sets “excuse themselves” and walk away. In such early stages, what is the best thing to focus on?
ZhelyazkoOctober 5, 2014 at 11:07 am #71722
Zhel: well, a good approach for me looks like this:
1. I have to actually WANT to talk to the girl–I don’t approach just to approach, but to actually engage the girl. THat makes a world of difference.
2. I find situational is the best. I’ve gotten some dates from asking directions, etc…but situational openers (these can actually be direct/indirect/whatever) show a lot of social awareness and make it easy to engage people. Sometimes, to get good at this it can be helpful to simply say an opening line under your breath–EVEN IF THE GIRL DOESN’T HEAR YOU–just to practice responding to your environment.
3. What you actually say really doesn’t matter. “Hi”, to be honest, is a really, really difficult opening line. It’s easy to say “Hi” just in passing, but to use it honestly–to indicate that you intend to talk to someone is hard. Because you feel like you need the right follow-up. If you can feel comfortable saying “hello” to people you don’t know, with an intention to actually talk to them–rather than a quick acknowledgement of their presence, that’s a huge step forward.October 5, 2014 at 1:51 pm #71729
What about after the initial approach. It seems like whatever stories I tell/ routines I use my sets do not go anywhere.
I know it is difficult to judge without having seen me live, so in general which two/three skills are most important- banter, escalation, etc. so that I can focus first on what brings the most benefit.
ZhelyazkoOctober 5, 2014 at 3:03 pm #71733
it’s not about the stories or routines themselves–it’s how you’re
a.) delivering whatever you’re saying and
b.) engaging the girl in the process of delivery. You need to read her as well as concentrate on yourself. You can touch her sometimes–shoulder, whatever–but do this once she shows that she’s invested in what you’re saying.
are you talking AT her or “vibing” (god i hate that term but it works here) with her? You initiate at first, but it should become a 2-way street pretty soon or it’s not going anywhere.
That said, it’s all important–banter gives you stuff to say, escalation lets you move things forward. See if you can really study yourself and these interactions to find out at EXACTLY what point your interactions tend to break down. You don’t even need a video for this (honestly I don’t really support secretly videotaping other people, especially if you’re posting it on a website) but you really need to pay attention as you’re interacting.October 5, 2014 at 4:46 pm #71734
Thank you, again.
The tip about vibing is really important. I try to listen as attentively as I can when other people are speaking. And I do try to genuinely find out who she is. Is this what you are talking about?
Second pro tip- I have been thinking about what point my interactions break down at. And they break down at all different points. A lot of them are due to my inability to escalate well enough. Some break at rapport. Some at banter/flirting (the early minutes of the interaction). I will work on them all.
Thanks for taking time to reply 🙂
ZOctober 5, 2014 at 8:12 pm #71735SomeguyUKParticipant
Maybe you could write out some examples of your interactions where the girl walks away?
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