Hot to approach with legitimate reasons?

[shoot79]

Hi,

I tried to analyze my situation with girls and have come to the following conclusion:

If I have a legitimate, genuine reason to talk to a girl, I have absolutely no fear or problem walking right up to her starting a conversation. I can do that with 5s and even HB10s. I don’t care – I just do it. For instance, a legitimate reason for me to talk to a girl would be, if I find her having problems with her car … because I know quite a bit about cars and might fix the problem right there on the road side. So my brain tells me it is OK to help her, and that is my ice breaker. If, afterwards, the conversations turns flirtatious, my brain still tells me it is OK, because originally I had a genuine reason for approaching her. Another acceptable reason for approaching is if we were both stuck in an elevator.

The problem is, however, that there are very few legitimate genuine reasons for my brain to talk to a girl on the street or in the supermarket. Asking for directions, what time it is, complimenting her etc is bad, because I know the answers to the questions and then my brain kicks in telling me the reason for approaching her is not legitimate and genuine. If I see a hot girl at the beach, I don’t make a move because: I know I approach her only because of her looks, and she knows I am approaching her only because of her looks … and maybe sex. And my brain knows that. I would much more prefer to move in on her with a legitimate genuine reason, so she knows that I’m not after her body … in the first place … but more her personality, skills, whatever. And I also know that such a legitimate reason would relax her.

Moreover, based on my dating experience, I am not afraid of getting rejected. I don’t care – if they don’t like me, it is their problem. But before I can get rejected, I need to approach out of the “blue” and that seems to be the hardest part – not the rejection in itself.

The best workaround to this would be to constantly tell yourself (somewhere found on the internet): “I wonder what she says if I tell her XYZ?” But this still does not trick my brain :-).

Any suggestions on what to do?

shoot79

[The_Hurricane]

Your observation is the most common observation of most men who have social anxiety and are learning the basics of approaching women. In other words, you are not a special case and don’t need work-arounds and special solutions.

Whatever is happening to a woman – whether her car is broken down on the side of the road, she’s standing on the corner of a street in your neighborhood holding an unfolded map and looking lost, her bags are too heavy to carry up the stairs – you are lying to yourself if you think that you’re approaching her because you are simply a nice guy trying to help. The latter may be true, but that is not why you are on this forum. The main reason you’d love to be in the position of a helpful passerby is that you are still approaching her because of the one thing you know about her at that moment: you are physically attracted to her.

Guess what? It’s ok. Girls want you to be physically attracted. That’s why they spend a crazy amount of time trying to be physically attractive. And if you’re attracted to a woman, you are demonstrating something attractive about yourself by taking the initiative and the risk of approaching her. That’s the way the game works.

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can read – even the brilliant explanation in the above paragraphs – to convince your brain to behave differently than it is behaving now. You can’t will yourself to feel a different way. What you can do is slowly get your brain accustomed to interactions with women. It’s hard. Your brain will fight you. But if you take little steps again and again and again, over time, your anxiety will go away.

All conversations between men and women who are attracted to each other are a pretense. What they really want to figure out is whether they like each other and are open to falling in love (or going to bed or whatever). But they talk about things like the weather and their friend’s nice apartment and how the drinks taste and where they got their fancy shoes. It’s all a pretense, a pretense that society prefers to the awkwardness of coming up to someone and telling them the honest truth, you are physically attracted to them and are hoping that the two of you can be naked together.

Accept the pretense. Accept the fact that girls want you to get better at approaching them by asking silly, inconsequential questions or asking for directions and the time or where there is a library nearby or where you can get on the Internet. Don’t fight it. Accept the game and work through your anxiety in little, manageable steps.

–Lee

[ryano]

I don’t really agree with “accept the pretense”. You don’t need to come up with a bullshit REASON to talk to any girl, you just talk to them. The underlying reason is that you’re a man and you’re approaching an attractive woman – and women understand that. There’s no use in trying to hide that fact.

Indirect – the reason is directions or something else.
Direct – the reason is her beauty. I came to talk to you BECAUSE you were hot.

The problem with both these approaches is that you’re explicitly giving the girl a reason why you’re talking to her. You don’t need a reason. A girl at the beach you can just simply come up to her and say “Nice day isn’t it?” or just “hi”, or “how are you?”, or “what are you reading?”, or “who are you waiting for?”. The meer fact that you’re talking to her is more than enough reason for the girl, she will intuit your intention just by the fact you’re talking to her. Men oftentimes require a reason, moreso for their own justification than for the girl. Girls are very quick to spot that you’re interested in them, you don’t need to provide them with a reason.

However, if you MUST use a reason just give her a compliment as it’s the easiest way to start talking to someone. I don’t agree with what you said:
“If I see a hot girl at the beach, I don’t make a move because: I know I approach her only because of her looks, and she knows I am approaching her only because of her looks … and maybe sex.”

I mean, duh? Do you think girls are that gullible to think otherwise? And do you really want to convince me that you’re not approaching her because of her looks? Of’course you are. If she was a big fat whale on the beach versus a hot female you probably wouldn’t approach her. Be a man and tell her that you thought she was attractive if you can’t come up with another reason. It’s always better to approach than not.

Regardless of the approach: direct, indirect, or something without any reason like “how are you?” the subcommunication should ALWAYS be “I’m attracted to you”. This can be communicated through your eyes, through teasing, through flirting. But you definitely don’t want to go completely indirect, ask for directions, get into a friendly neighborly conversation, and then ask for her number. There’s nothing that gets a girl’s pu**y drier than that.

Girls long for a man that comes up to them, teases them and makes his intention completely clear that he’s interested in them yet he doesn’t need to give an explicit, verbal reason. Just by the fact that you’re talking to them is enough reason (think: “how’s your day going?” with a smirk). That’s more than enough reason.

So to answer your question: You do not need a reason. You’re a man and she’s an attractive woman, that’s your reason. That was nature’s reason. And trust me that girls don’t need you to explicitly give them a reason, especially when they’re stationary. If they’re walking then they generally require a reason– direct is usually easiest, or some bullshit indirect question but make sure you transition fast to your real intent.

[The_Hurricane]

That’s exactly what pretense means. If you’re complimenting her handbag or asking her for directions when neither of these things are at all important to you, you are using a pretense to talk to her. Does she realize this? Of course she does. But she, in turn pretends that what you said to her was your real purpose for coming over and plays along. All of game on both sides is a pretense, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t serve a useful purpose.

–Lee

[ryano]

Sure but you don’t NEED the pretense on the opener. I’ve had plenty of girls I’ve approached in the subway platform with “hey, excuse me?” (girls look at me).. “sorry to stop you, but I just saw you and I thought you looked great” (girl: oh thank you blabla). “I don’t mean to be so forward, but I’m a bit late for a meeting at work.. maybe I could grab your number and we could have a coffee sometime in the area?” And she gives me her number. No conversation, no nothing. Happened plenty of times to me just like that. Now maybe you could argue that when we meet up for a date the “pretense” might be when we sit down for coffee or go for a walk, or a drink or whatever. But to me that’s just getting to know the person. To get the number, the pretense of talking about her bag isn’t required. Although it might win you some brownie points that she can see you’re a bit sociable.

[The_Hurricane]

What you’re talking about is a pure attraction approach. Depending on who you are and what you look like, it can happen. However, to me, this doesn’t even fit the definition of game. Give me a man who is good looking enough and spends enough money on a good outfit and yes, he will get a number some fraction of the time simply by asking for it as you did in your example. This isn’t game. This is biology. Game is convincing women who normally wouldn’t give you the time of day that you’re so valuable that they should consider you a romantic prospect. In other words, it’s the use of psychology to present the most attractive image of yourself. If you’re a cute kid with a great body and a great smile, you don’t need game to meet women.

–Lee

[ryano]

“Game is convincing women who normally wouldn’t give you the time of day that you’re so valuable that they should consider you a romantic prospect.”

Maybe that’s where we differ. I don’t try to “convince” any woman to like me. If they don’t like the real me – I move on. I’m going to display the same amount of “value” with the girl as I would with my friends or family. She does not get any special treatment.

Besides, “game” is a weird term to me. And maybe we’re just arguing semantics here. But to me, if a man can display a good sense of humor, and maybe a bit of wit, personal style, confidence, etc. Ie things he’s developed throughout his life hopefully (or maybe he developed just by approaching and dating many women). That’s about all he needs. If you want to call it “game”, ok. But that still has nothing to do with using a pretense or “reason” to talk to her. You can display all the above qualities by approaching her directly and women are fine with that just as well.

In my example above, yes that was a very short interaction– but generally I try to make a bit of small talk, use a bit of humor and teasing, but that’s not game. That’s just being a social/fun person, the same way I am with my family. And I don’t need a reason for starting the conversation with her other than I found her attractive.

I don’t think necessarily talking about her bag for example, or coming up with a funny story will generally make him a more attractive person. I also know that different women have different preferences. Some women like boldness, others like more comfort. Personally, I don’t care what the woman wants I do what I want– she either likes it or I move on.

When you don’t have a pretense it displays masculine qualities that are attractive to women. Heck, this could even be as simple as glancing at a woman in a subway station, holding eye contact, giving her a little smile. This speaks volumes to women. Then coming up to her, saying “hi”, getting into a bit of common chitchat, then getting her number.

I’m not saying that using a pretense such as the weather, or her bag, or whatever to talk doesn’t work, it could work too. I’m just saying, especially in regards to the OPs question is that you don’t necessarily need a “reason” for approaching women. Her being attractive is a good enough reason for example, and it doesn’t mean the man needs a pre-requisite of being good-looking to do so. The woman will be attracted to him based on so many micro-behaviors in that small interaction it hardly has to do with him being “cute” or having a good body. Maintaining eye contact, tonality, his smile, his style, his demeanor, a million other nonverbals.. so much more than just the pretense portion of the start of the conversation.

[ryano]

Shoot79:
“Another acceptable reason for approaching is if we were both stuck in an elevator.”

lol. yeah, I wouldn’t hold my breadth waiting for that to happen.

“The problem is, however, that there are very few legitimate genuine reasons for my brain to talk to a girl on the street or in the supermarket. ”

If you cannot think of a genuine “reason” to talk to a girl, then just go direct. Even in a supermarket. Go up to the girl and say “hey.. sorry to interrupt. But I just thought you looked so nice today I had to say hello.” Just be respectful and honest. It’s good enough. In the supermarket though there’s alot of openers that you could use such as “have you ever tried that sauce? is it any good?” or “wow.. so many choices here huh?” but then it gets a bit more difficult to transition if you’re not used to doing that. So my point is, just go direct if you can’t find a reason. The more you build your confidence talking to women, ironically you can go more indirect and talk to them because you’ll feel more comfortable and your brain will get more creative. But just focus on approaching more for now.

Just be unfiltered though. Social norms really screws up with a man’s creativity. Say whatever *YOU* want. Never think about what the girl wants to hear, trust me it’ll screw you up big time trying to adjust yourself to her. Just do what you want and play with different openers. Make it easy on yourself. If you feel uninspired say something really blunt like “hey, can I have your number?”.. Play with it. Improvise. In the supermarket try even saying “hey, how’s your day going?” there are no rules with this stuff. You can literally say whatever the heck you want.

[The_Hurricane]

@ryano

There are many great things about me that women do not know when I approach them and many things about them I don’t know. In a normal environment – work, social circles, school – it may take us weeks, months, or even years to discover those things. That is why there is nothing natural about game. Having an ordinary conversation with a stranger is better than having none at all, but it puts the weight disproportionately on looks. It is very hard for an ordinary looking man to say very little and still get a date with a very good looking woman. But that doesn’t mean he’s not good enough for her. Looks are the first criterion, sure, and if you make the interaction simple enough, they will be the only criterion. But good game is the process of expertly managing the social environment in a way that brings out that hidden value, value that women want to know about. It’s what sometimes allows an ordinary looking fella to date a super hottie. It works both ways. When I meet women who don’t know how to play, flirt, tell stories, and engage me in a unique experience, I have little desire to take them on a date. A date requires me to dress, go somewhere, spend some time with her, come back. It’s too much effort to spend on a boring person. I want to know right there if she’s good enough for me. Fortunately, the process of finding out how valuable she is is exactly the same as the process of showing her – my looks aside – how valuable I am. It’s called game.

–Lee

[ryano]

I agree with your there. I approach a lot of women, and it’s very rare to find a woman who is actually funny, engaging, and has the ability to flirt. Most of the time when I find I’m dealing with a dud, I just eject.

I guess we’re just arguing semantics, I just don’t really like the word “game”, I just call it having a good personality and actually working on yourself to develop it. Being more of a giver than just a taker. Too many people just don’t put the effort into trying to make a relationship work. Or they think that by being distant is what attracts people. I hate women for example who take their sweet time to answer a goddam text but unfortunately it’s the vast majority of them. The day I find a woman who’s straightforward, honest, doesn’t try to play bullshit games with me is the woman I’m really gonna go for.. Also, a woman who has a good sense of humor and is intelligent and tries to invest in me as much as I am investing in her (again, I don’t call that “game” I just call that being a quality person). Those are so rare though.

[The_Hurricane]

Well, let’s talk about this for a second. Are you really looking for that woman who doesn’t play games? Suppose you meet an attractive woman when she approaches you and says “You looked like someone I’d have fun talking to. What’s your name?” You chat with her for a while – say 10 or 15 minutes – and suddenly she says “You know what, I’m coming to the conclusion that you’re boyfriend material. I find myself attracted to you. I’d like to go on a proper date.”

On the date, she is equally forthcoming, telling you, as she gets to know you, all of the things she likes about you. And so on and so on. No mystery, straight up, no games. Would you find that attractive? I wouldn’t. And I don’t think most men would either. In my experience, women who behave like this are needy and don’t have many other options. It’s not honesty. It’s desperation.

Here’s the kind of woman I’d like to meet. She’s not sure about me for a while. There seems to be something about me that keeps her coming back, but I can’t completely read her, and the reason for that is she doesn’t want me to read her. She’s still making up her mind about me and if she were really honest, she’d reveal some of her interest as well as some of the things that are giving her pause. Bleh. What a buzz kill.

I don’t want to know what she’s thinking. I want to know that she’s making every date fun. She’s making me work for it – because she’s interested only in men who think she’s worth the effort – but she’s also rewarding me in ways that make me think the effort is not wasted. She seems to have many romantic options but she’s slowly spending more and more time with me.

This, to me, is the behavior of a high value woman, exactly the kind of woman I want. Complete honesty, directness, too much up-front effort – these are the qualities of a desperate, low value woman. Most men would eventually lose interest in a woman like that. (More importantly, most women would lose interest in a man like that.)

You can use whatever word you want for mastery of social dynamics. If you don’t like game, you can just call this woman socially astute, a skilled people person. But I call this process game. Game is good. Game is what makes it possible for two high value people to get to know each while they make up their minds. Making up your mind too quickly is desperation, not honesty.

–Lee

[Slim]

I tend to agree with Lee about this. I went on several dates with a girl who is slightly above average attractiveness – but she has little to no game.

It was clear from the very beginning that she would be no challenge. And the thing is, she’s got a LOT of things going for her. Smart, articulate, a reader, sense of humor, healthy, easy going, similar interests… If she could just use a little bit of game on me, I’m certain I’d be more attracted. But as it stands, it’s just not happening.

I’ve actually thought about suggesting she learn game somehow. Wonder how that would go down… Any suggestions for that Lee? I’m reluctant to advise her to read The Rules…

[jonathanA]

@ryano, @Hurricane

I think, you both have a point. I’d rather prefer a full direct approach. But since I am an older semester (like Hurricane) I have found that many young girls are overwhelmed, intimidated and have a tendency to run away, if I tell them why I approached. They can’t cope with my status, my appearance or whatever, right away, but if given some time, they will happily return, if they felt attracted.
So I decided to cotton ball my approach for them a little, so to speak.
This problem doesn’t appear so often with older ladies, like in their thirties.

Haven’t been here for a long time, but interesting to turn back occasionally.

[The_Hurricane]

It’s definitely true that, if you’re older, you will have a harder time getting success with direct game. But I’m making a different point here. Regardless of how you open, having good game means more than just asking for and getting the date. Good game is the process of back and forth in which you find out about each other in a way that is not otherwise possible, at least not in the fifteen minutes you would usually get in a cold approach. The question “Are you funny and creative?” may be honest and direct, but the answer is less useful to you that a little game in which she gets to try to play along with you by putting her wit and creativity on display. Guys who know how to do this well can demonstrate value while getting girls to reciprocate. That is what I call good game. Of course, there are plenty of people out there who don’t like the word game. I’m fine with calling what I’m talking about expertise in social dynamics, social fluency, social intelligence, or whatever else. But that doesn’t change the concept very much. Simply getting girls to go out with you is a less useful skill than getting girls to go out with you because they truly understand and appreciate what makes you special and desirable.

–Lee

[ryano]

@jonathanA, not sure what you’re saying. But if “direct game” means giving someone a compliment in order to start a conversation it doesn’t matter how old you are or how young they are.

as far as this whole “game” thing is concerned. I find that most people play the same stupid games. Both men and women alike. I’ve dated hundreds of girls and it’s like they all have the same game playing book. To the point where I can read their behaviors so easily, they’re all confirmists, sheep playing by the same rule-book. Nobody is unique these days.

Here’s how it works. The older you get (and yes, older people play more games) the more you’re conditioned by society. So you start off having your own unique personality, and as you get older people (family, friends, society, pickup coaches) start layering all these rules and filters that you should live by, how to talk to people, how to act, which clouds your own uniqueness and makes you conform, until you become the exactly the same as other people. Your real personality dies, and you become a phony sheep playing games. You go onto forums like these asking questions like “how do I start a conversation with a woman?” because you’ve been brainwashed that just about ANYTHING you say (direct or indirect) is wrong, where the real truth is it doesn’t matter what you say as long as you just say ANYTHING.

And even this game stuff– everyone here has access to the same material online both men and women, so even the game stuff becomes so commonplace to the point where people start acting the same. Guys start saying the same thing like “Hey, you know where I can find a starbucks?”, or Mystery’s “who lies more?” or even, “Hey I was just over there.. and I saw you and I thought you were.. CUTE” (the community decided CUTE was the best adjective to describe any girl and now that line is so overused it’s nauseating, guys are running to girls on the street saying the same shit again and again). Another is the “three day rule” (altho now less used because it’s so overplayed) guys taking 2-3 days to call a woman after a date to make them seem more important than they actually are. Or acting like their career or lives are important. I can’t tell you how many times I see girls with the worst careers yet they act like they’re so important and busy. They aren’t busy for shit. Nowadays, I actually crave a girl to tell me “yes, my job sucks. I hate it” or “wow, I’m so bored” because most people act phony, like their lives are so awesome. Men and women alike. I know what people’s lives are like, especially in consumer driven America. People’s lives are lonely as shit (most people anyway).

And hurricane, I don’t mean that she needs to act thirsty and tell me she wants a boyfriend, I just mean she needs to be herself… if she’s undecided that’s great. I just can’t have her act like EVERYONE else, it’s so boring. All I’ve seen from dating girls is the same thing over and over.

Now I try to be unique. I try to message them after 5 seconds because most guys wait a few hours. I try to take them somewhere besides a lounge or a coffeeshop because that’s what most guys do. I have alot of guys friends and everyone’s game is exactly the same it’s pathetic. Now, whatever anyone tells me to do I just do the opposite.

So to everyone on this forum, my point is to just be UNFILTERED, don’t be perfect, make mistakes. hell, try to make mistakes. say and do whatever YOU want to do in the moment. Don’t use scripts. Don’t rehearse the same material. Don’t read shit online and do whatever the next man did. Do something completely unique and different, that’s what girls remember.

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