After second date.

[Cartoox]

Seems kinda late but I’ll add my 2 cents in…There’s a lot of good advice up there already, especially Lee’s point that you want to focus on people that are adding something to your life and dropping the rest. However from reading your initial description in your opening post, there is one thing that sticks out.
On a first date, I would escalate a bit, actually a lot if possible, mostly to establish the dynamic from the start that this is about sex and a possible relationship.
From my experience, when I don’t escalate and establish some sort of sexual/ romantic dynamic on the first date, the second date either doesn’t materialize or ends up with me in the friend zone.

Find something that suits your personality …Me, I tell them their outfits makes them look really nice and sexy, and sometimes I ask them to spin around so I can check their butts out….I get a lot of “hey” and “ hahaha” but it does establish the flirty dynamic from the start of the date….after which escalating seems more natural.
Have some stories and topics ready..
This past Monday night, with the girl that I’ve mentioned in my post “Text response ideas “ , within 20 minutes of sitting down, we were talking about vibrators and she was telling me stories about them from her past….despite the fact that she said “ hmm, strange topic to start the evening with “ . As Ryano says up there , its our job to lead…

Eric and almost all other coaches focused on pickup and attraction strongly recommend escalating quickly on your first dates…

[EJ_ap]

A bit of update. My mistake asking her third time but I did. I suggested to come to an event. She said she would love to say yes but she can’t go. Two days later before the even she’s texting me are you excited for tomorrow? Which threw me off. I said why, she quoted my invitation. I simply said yes and sorry you can’t come. Her response was yea I know 🙁

[SomeguyUK]

This is a good sign I think. She might be seeking validation (which you just gave her by saying you we’re sorry you couldn’t make it), or maybe she is trying to let you know she is still interested.

I think pulling back is working here.

[ryano]

@MrAntiquity

I don’t play games at all, that’s my game. If I go out with a girl and I like her I don’t have a problem setting up a date right away or calling her and telling her I enjoyed it. Or just going with my gut instinct.

When I say girls are random, it’s because they are. Each girl is different. But one thing that will always remain the same: me. So I act like I always do and the ones that I get along with, those are the ones I want. I know who they are, I can spot them.

And don’t give me this bs that if you’re not as good looking or older you need “game”. Even if I was in my 80s I wouldn’t change the way I am. Besides, your inherent value (age, net-worth, looks, personality) isn’t going to change much by changing your “game”. Although you might argue that it raises your ‘personality’ dimension, I think if anything it lowers it because it shows that you’re a phony, and people can see right through it. The people that I’ve seen with the most game often times suffer from the lowest self esteem. And I’ve dated lots of girls I can spot the gamers right away. And they’re usually the weirdest people too.

The reason I play no games atm it because it’s simply more effective. And it’s RARE. Most people play games, it’s very “refreshing” when someone doesn’t. When a girl doesn’t play any games with me I respect her about 10 fold as opposed to when she selectively takes 2-3 days to answer me, or makes it seem like she’s “valuable” to talk to me, etc. I know she isn’t. People are simply not valuable in general. Most people have a handful of friends and are sitting in their miserable corporate jobs. They’re not valuable at all really so I can tell when they’re bullshitting me. What makes them valuable to me is when they’re true to themselves and to me. That’s really the only thing that raises their value.

Also, when I cut the game crap I noticed not only did I get more action, but it was something that I could sustain. What happens when you “game” a girl and then all of a sudden your true personality rings in? which it undoubtedly will. When the smoke and mirrors are gone she’ll be left with you anyway. So might as well show her your real self right away, so if she’s not a good fit she can run for the hills and spare me my precious time.

Anyway, the reason I don’t like forums like this is because it’s almost like a magician’s forum, or a sorcery forum. If you want to raise your inherent value I’d suggest you pursue your passions in life, be true to yourself, and don’t do things to impress people, rather impress yourself.

@EJ_ap this girl likes you. stop seeing every missed opportunity like it’s a lost cause or that you did something “wrong”. She might have had things to do which prevented her for going. Don’t hold it against her and don’t start playing a chess match in your head. If you like her, pursue her. If you don’t, let her go.

p.s One thing though that I understand is women’s inherent emotional nature. So I don’t take what they say so seriously. If I really like a girl I’ll pursue her. Even if she doesn’t get back to me right away or doesn’t show me as much warm feelings back, I’ll keep being persistent. I understand it’s part of who they how. How they like to be courted. So when I say I don’t play games, that’s mainly from my side. But I know as women, they’re prone to be a little bit more “game” playing. But I also know that I can conform them to being more real as I have with many girls. Eventually you break them down and they become very real with you. I just do my job as the lead and I lead from example. They come around if you remain true to it.

[SomeguyUK]

The only time you don’t need game is if the girl is more into you than you are into here from the start.

When it comes to cold approaching, you need some kind of game if you want to improve your odds. The style of conversation you might have with a girl who you meet through a friend in a normal social situations does nothing for you in a cold approach situation. Girls just get bored immediately. They WANT you to be exciting, bold, different. And that’s where you need game.

YMMV but that’s my personal experience.

[EJ_ap]

One thing though also turned me off is I know she deleted me from her contact list. I know this by her copying and pasting messages from our previous conversations. This is not a good sign. Looks like Lee is right again. I should completely pull back for at least two weeks.

[MrAntiquity]

@Ryan–

I’m using ‘game’ loosely as in the whole nonsense of dating. Of course flirting is a game. It’s fun–she tosses up a ball, you bat it back, or vice versa. I don’t mean game in a creepy PUA sense. Also I didn’t say that you “need” game if you’re not good looking/rich/hi status–what I meant by “not being a hot commodity” just meant that if you’ve gone through your whole life seeing yourself as undesirable, and girls have picked up on that and placed you in that category, then you need to change some things up or you’re always going to be there. Maybe you’ll get lucky a few times–maybe you’ll even find love and get married–but if you’re stuck then it’s worth experimenting with things that work for other people. For example–I’m a tease, but I never teased girls. I was afraid to. Once I started, and realized that the reaction was much more charged, I decided that I liked releasing that part of me. So it was kind of calculated, but also something that fit.

[ryano]

@SomeguyUK Right, like “game” actually wins her over? Dude you were doing so good before I left a few months ago and then you reverted right back to this weird thinking again. You don’t need shit. Just approach girls and ask them out. By you cold approaching them you’ve already done what 99% of men don’t do and on top of that you want to be “bold”? Be yourself. Stop with over-trying it reeks of neediness.

@EJ_ap You keep going back to worrying about what she thinks about you, and trying to win her over. And you pulling back for two weeks to “change her mind” about you is another example of this. It’s lame behavior and it won’t make any difference. She either likes you or she doesn’t. You’re not going to change her with these weird behaviors. I think that if a girl likes a guy and vice versa they just want to spend time together, period.

Also, I personally would not want to have anything with a girl that “pulls back for two weeks to try and win me over”. That reeks of low self esteem to me. Btw, guess what happens within those two weeks, especially if she’s a hot girl she goes on other dates and forgets about you. You really aren’t as important as you think dude. Girls are like cats and the moment they have a new piece of yarn swinging in front of them they lose focus of everything else.

Anyway, I’m outta here. I’ve made my thoughts very clear on this forum and I’m not going to go back and forth about game and how stupid I think it is. Good luck to you guys and at the very least keep what I say in the back of your mind. You’ll most certainly need it.

[ryano]

@MrAntiquity having high self esteem and knowing your worth is not really game. It’s how you think of yourself as a person. And if you have things you’ve done in your life that you are proud of you will most certainly think of yourself as a highly prized individual. Guys that don’t accomplish much see themselves as low and they won’t EVER convince someone that they’re high value. For example, if we take a highly successful individual, for example, take Elon Musk. Does he need “game”? He’s a total nerd. But he’s accomplished alot in his life. He simply needs to breathe next to a girl and she knows he’s high value. So my point is, don’t make this about girls. Make this about your accomplishments. Work on yourself. Of’course you need to ask girls out. But your intrinsic value needs to speak for itself. And if it doesn’t, well, that means you need to work on yourself: go to the gym, work on your finances, upgrade to a bigger apartment, work on your style, etc. It’s not “game” and it’s definitely not “waiting 2-3 days to get back to a girl so she thinks you’re busy when you’re not” sort of thing.

[MrAntiquity]

@Ryan–

I assume that when you go up to a girl and ask her out you sometimes flirt with them, right? THe whole idea of “game” as this weird industry is simply because a lot of guys didn’t internalize these dynamics, so it helps to break them down: what he might say, how she might (or might not) respond and why. That’s all it is. I’ve noticed–like you–that when I’ve done the best with women it’s been natural. But after signing up for these forums, and seeing what goes on in this weird underworld, it also became clear that the time I’ve had success is when I was doing these things–but without realizing it until after the fact.

I agree that you don’t want to plan/manipulate your every move, but it’s nice to have a framework for what the whole thing actually looks/feels like.

It’s like music theory and jazz–some people can just play jazz. Raw, innate talent. But for a lot of people it can broaden horizons knowing the fundamentals behind it–the theory. But you don’ twnat those fundamentals to shape every single chord you write because then it becomes mechanical and phony. For me, I want the theory to help release the passion/emotion, not dictate it.

[MrAntiquity]

@Ryan–

One last thing (responding to your last comment). As for “value”–I know I have value. I have a ton of self respect in many ways–and (not to brag) but my life really IS interesting–and I love it. BUT–this is an area where I got stuck, so just because I have a boatload of things going fo rme doesn’t mean I can automatically feel the comfort I need to feel to simply go up and flirt with girls. IT’s stupid. I know, rationally, that if (and when) I do, I have a lot of success. But it’s damn hard to overcome anxiety—can take years. YOu can’t just say “do this” and have it done, unfortunately. That’s why I’m here–for motivation/support–but that’s also why I question a lot of the advice that sometimes isn’t specifically what I feel I need.

[ryano]

MrAntiquity yeah but I like to have fun with anyone I talk to – guys and girls. Don’t you ever have a fun banter with your friends? Girls are nothing special.

As far as music theory goes, perfect analogy. by now I’m sure you know how to ‘play’ since you’ve been on these forums for awhile. After awhile relearning theory gets in the way of actually producing music. You think a music producer like DeadMau5 goes into his room and studies up on the c-minor scale? no he goes into the studio and plays music. Theory becomes non-existent after awhile. I really hope that a guy that has been 2+ years in the game doesn’t go and read theory books anymore.

[MrAntiquity]

@Ryan–

Well that’s why I only use the forum here–it’s a small group and a good bunch of people. Not everyone agrees w/everything, which is healthy. I was actually getting pretty good with bantering/flirting with girls, and going on some dates, until a few years ago then something stopped dead. I’m not sure what happened–it’s been difficult ever since. Some sort of mental block. I can advise people well enough–I know WHAT to do, but I rarely do it. I think it’s just a matter of time to get it back. I hope so, at least. It’s weird, to be honest.

[ryano]

To your last point, the way you beat anxiety is through exposure therapy.

The way I beat my approach anxiety is I went to huge cities and would run up to girls 8 hours a day. I did this in Washington Square park in nyc, I’d actually go up to every single girl in washington square park in a summer. Sitting on the grass, sitting on the bench, I just went up to every single one I could see with a direct approach and I made sure other girls would see me approach different girls. I did it for hours and hours. Same in Las Vegas, I would go to clubs and just approach every single girl I could see. Same in London, I’d go for hours in Oxford Circus right outside TopShop (and inside topshop) running after girls and talking to them again and again and again.

After approach anxiety came sexual anxiety. The way I beat it was through going through every sexual encounter imaginable to man with a host of different girls. To the point where I was stopped thinking about it as anxiety. Now it’s completely natural for me to do anything i want sexually really.

As far as “what to do” you know what to do. I’m telling you what to do. You don’t need anything special beyond going up to a girl, inviting her out, and escalating. That’s really it. “how” and analyzing is just a anxiety driven paralyzing thing. You get through your anxieties by doing the hard work not by talking about it and sitting in a forum with other guys talking about “game”. It doesn’t help at all. I went through all this I’m telling you this from experience.

I remember reading about game a few years ago, going through all the theory. And it didn’t do ANYTHING it didn’t help at all. What worked was actually going into the field and experiencing everything first hand. Getting the experience. For example, what you said about flirting. That was a revelation that came to me after my second year doing this. But I couldn’t have got it from talking to other guys about it. I got there by speaking to many girls and figuring out that they prefer a lighthearted banter as opposed to serious talk.

[MrAntiquity]

I agree with you (and the others on this forum) about exposure therapy. Trust me–I don’t just sit here and type on this blog! I do try to chat up girls as often as I can–but I find that I’m only able to do it rarely–whereas 5-6 years ago I was doing it pretty regularly. Who knows why social anxiety can kick in for no reason around 40–it’s a pain. I think I can beat it but it will take time.

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