Terrible Fear of Getting Into Trouble Again?
January 23, 2014 at 4:21 pm #71136
So, I had been doing very well into Step 5 back then, and although I was still on Step 5 I usually asked for numbers anyway, so I got to the point where I would get at least a number a day.
Then this happened. Long story short, I am banned from talking to girls in a particular café, due to complaints (that’s what the security dude said). And when this security dude was talking to me, he also had my ID, name, phone, and address written down, to be filed. This happened, I got home, and honestly, cried. Out of terrble guilt (feels like what I have been doing is wrong), and confusion.
And I found that my AA came back after this incident! I found myself overanalyzing things afterward (fearing that I might be doing something wrong or get into trouble again), and have fallen back to step 3 (staying a while gives me lots of anxiety AGAIN)!
How shall I get over guilt (and this new type of anxiety)? 🙁
At this point I don’t care about being merely rejected by girls, but I seem to care about whether or not they might file a complain against me, if that makes sense.January 23, 2014 at 9:21 pm #71137
You have to address these fears on several levels.
First, on a purely practical level, how do you think that complaint against you would read? Talking to strangers is not illegal. It’s what many people want when they decide to go to a public place such as a bookstore, bar, or cafe. Those who don’t want it have the right to ask you to stop, but unless you are threatening them, either physically or verbally, you are not legally obligated to do so. You may be asked to leave a place of business for violating a rule – for example, by making unwanted noise – but if that rule is selectively enforced, those businesses are leaving themselves open to a serious lawsuit, which is why the vast majority of public businesses would not ask you to leave, even if they don’t like what you’re doing. So relax. You have every right to talk to girls, even girls who don’t want you to talk to them, and no one has the right to stop you. You can choose to leave if asked, but don’t make the mistake of thinking you did something wrong.
Now, let’s think about this on a purely psychological level, because that’s where the real problem lies. The real problem is that you don’t think you have the right to flirt with girls who don’t like you. You have the mistaken belief that you have the right to flirt only with the girls who like you. Most people are incompatible, which is why most of us go through so many romantic partners before finding the right one. Most girls will not like you. Yet study after study shows that women want men who are interested in them to come over and say hello. This is part of the game. Most girls are willing to sacrifice a little privacy for the potential of meeting the man who’s right for them. Take them up on it. There’s nothing wrong with what you’re doing. You’re just doing what most women say they want you to do. If, after the fact, they decide they don’t like you, it’s kinda like deciding they don’t like the lottery ticket they actually bought. That’s their problem, not yours.
–LeeJanuary 23, 2014 at 10:40 pm #71138
As you can see from this link, arbitrarily kicking you out is a liability.
The business must either decide whether it prohibits all normal conversation, or it must tolerate all normal conversation, even if it doesn’t like the purpose of that conversation.
A woman reporting you for having offended her is not grounds for kicking you out. The business would have to show that your actions were generally offensive, not just to this person, but to any reasonable person, and that’s a pretty hard thing to prove.
–LeeJanuary 24, 2014 at 11:23 am #71139
Thanks for the response man – made me feel better!
Well, I didn’t get kicked out or banned from the location, but banned (or prohibited is probably the better word) from talking to the girls there, other than for the sole purpose of doing businesses. I assume this doesn’t make any difference legally, as long as I’m the only one who’s prohibited from doing so in their premises?January 24, 2014 at 2:37 pm #71140
Correct. They are not allowed to tell you that you cannot have personal conversations with girls while allowing others to do so. I don’t know how far you want to take this. Personally, I’d just move to another cafe. If you approach frequently, and always in the same place, this will happen to you once every couple of years. I’d just accept that and move on. But then again, I live in New York City, where the options are limitless. If you live in a town where that cafe is your only option, or you just have some time on your hands and want to fight this on grounds of principle, the law is on your side. If you decide to fight, I’d print out the relevant information and take it to the manager, telling him it’s inappropriate for his security guard to ask for your id and to tell you that you can’t have personal conversations with strangers for whatever reason (as long as it doesn’t involve threatening or obviously offensive behavior) and that the next time it happens, you will file a harassment complaint with the local police and sue the establishment. Harassment is typically defined as repetitive behavior intended to disturb or upset, which doesn’t cover your behavior – talking to a particular woman and stopping when she asks you to stop – but does cover the behavior of the guard if he again interferes in your personal interactions with others. Just to be clear, I’m not a lawyer, but the information I’m giving you is public knowledge for many in the community. A few years back, shop staff and even police would follow pickup students around in the Barnes and Noble in Union Square, NYC. That all stopped when someone stood up to them and explained their rights.
–LeeJanuary 26, 2014 at 2:06 am #71141
Got it! Thanks Lee! Now we got the legality aspect of this down!
Psychologically, it seems like I do have the belief that: it’s wrong to make others uncomfortable.
Do you think it’s reasonable to let this belief go, or to belief otherwise (it’s okay to make others uncomfortable)?January 26, 2014 at 5:54 pm #71142
As long as you’re not breaking the law, is it ok to make others uncomfortable? It depends on what’s at stake. If nothing is at stake, you may want to choose a behavior that doesn’t make others uncomfortable. However, there are things in life that are worth creating a little friction over, and one of those is finding the love of your life (and, if things work out, becoming the love of someone else’s life). Before you go over and say hello, women can’t tell whether they’re attracted to you. They can make a decision based on your looks alone, but as many of us in the community know, looks alone do not comprise a woman’s entire assessment of your attractiveness. How you do the approach and how you behave during the interaction are important elements of your attractiveness. That is why women want men to approach them, even when they know that they are not going to be attracted to the vast majority of men who are going to approach them. If, after the fact, they decide they don’t like you, they don’t get to take back the wish they previously made. Now, not every woman has signed on to the approach-me-if-you’re-interested contract, and some are going to be annoyed that they can’t read a book in their favorite coffee shop without being hit on by guys. Welcome to the real world. Those women have every right to give you an annoyed look and say “I’m sorry, I just want to read my book.” It’s happened plenty to all of us and we all have to learn to accept it with grace. What those women don’t get to do is dictate to the rest of the world how people should behave in a public place, especially when it can affect something as important as whether two people who are single and truly compatible wind up meeting each other. It takes a special kind of witch to resent having to utter that one sentence, even a few times a day, if it means that single people get to experience live social interaction with other single people when they deliberately go to a public place where such interactions have taken place for the entire history of humanity. So, should you be worried that you’re bothering this small subset of women? Absolutely not.
–LeeJanuary 26, 2014 at 7:19 pm #71143MrAntiquity2Participant
I would probably add that women are generally not annoyed by this thing if a.) they’re normal and b.) you’re doing it right. By doing it right, I mean a whole set of things including not only your tactic, but also how you feel about it.
My guess is that, if you’re getting complaints–and people are talking to the manager, you’re projecting creepiness because you actually FEEL like a bit of a creep doing this. That’s what you need to get over. Guys who have fun flirting are generally able to get the girl onboard with that EVEN if it doesn’t turn into anything. The discomfort part should probably happen more when you’re trying to cultivate some sexual tension–but that’s meant to be a good kind of discomfort–not a ‘um…leave me alone’ type of discomfort. That is a huge distinction and may be something that you need to work on recognizing, too–from the sound of it.
good luck–March 9, 2014 at 4:40 am #71196
@MrAntiquity2 I do sometimes feel nervous/uncomfortable doing this, and so if I stop feeling like that, it’ll reduce the likelihood of me creeping girls?
If so, how do I do something that I’m uncomfortable with comfortably — how shall I get rid of the uncomfortable feeling?
Thanks again for the tips!March 9, 2014 at 11:32 am #71199AriMoJParticipant
I might add my 2 cents. You’ll never totally get rid of unhelpful thoughts and feelings. You need to just accept them and continue doing it anyway. Once you accept your feelings and allow them to be, without focusing on them, they won’t bother you as much. You could be focusing inward too much, on what you’re doing and analysing everything instead of focusing on the moment, which is simply talking and honestly finding out about another human being. The more you do it the less uncomfortable you will feel.
Personally, I’m not a fan of direct approaches. Why would I show such direct interest before I know what her personality is like? Because until I do, I’m ‘not’ interested. I prefer to stick to indirect in cafés and public places. It’s a true ‘bitch’ that would get offended by a polite stranger (irrespective of gender) making casual conversation. You have time to feel out her personality and by the time you start flirting, she is more likely to just be flattered or laugh off your advances, rather than being offended. If you still feel creepy, you might be thinking of it too much as an ‘approach’. It’s just friendly conversation. Start more friendly conversations with random people and notice the difference in how you behave.March 14, 2014 at 9:08 am #71214
I have had 2 instances in which direct works very well, that’s why I’m still trying direct out and figuring out how to do it correctly. In those 2 cases, girls went “Awww, you’re so sweet”, and pretty much after that point is their work — they were the ones who asked me what do I do, where do I live, etc.
It’s a true ‘bitch’ that would get offended by a polite stranger (irrespective of gender) making casual conversation.
You got a good point there, looks like I’ve been putting all the blame to myself whatever happened.
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