Staying In The Interaction

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This topic contains 7 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Marshall74 2 weeks, 2 days ago.

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  • #73764

    Liberator
    Participant

    My weekly questions continue to come up as I progress through the steps.

    I’ve been going out every single day for the last 4 weeks without fail and find myself on step 4. Everything has gone swimmingly up until this point, but I’m now seeming to hit some resistance.

    I’m attempting to move the interaction into more personal talk and away from the interactions origin (usually directions). People are warm and helpful when first presented with the question. I’m on a park trail, going up to someone walking their dog and ask them where I can get some coffee.

    They happily tell me where and I then inject and I statement following it — “I’m trying to find cool little coffee shops with lots of character…”, “I’m so tired I was up late at this crazy party…” etc.

    They never seem to bite or follow up on this so I move on to making a statement about them – (after they give me directions) “Wow you really seem to know your way around, I assume you’ve lived here a while?”, “That sounds like a great little coffee shop! You seem like the artistic type who likes to go work outside.” etc.

    This is when things go awry. They answer as expected: “Uh..Yeah been here 10 years.”, “Umm…yeah I paint sometimes…” whatever.

    I follow up with a question about that but they change to being visibly antsy at this point. They look around. They start to step away. They look at the ground a bit. Answer hesitantly. Almost like they are begining to suspect a deeper motive (which is accurate since I DO have a deeper motive). But instead of trusting that motive, they seem to almost always intrinsically become suspect of it.

    Now, I remember in the book it talks about how *I* might be giving off vibes that makes them antsy such as fidgeting, talking faster or leaning away. But I have watched myself closely and I’m still as a rock. Not facing them directly. Speaking slowly. Yet they still almost unequivocally seem to start acting in this ‘suspicious’ way when I move on to a topic either about them or myself.

    “Is this guy really here for directions? What does he really want? This is weird who is this person I don’t know telling me about their coffee cravings?”

    It does not seem to be met with a warm desire to have a conversation. They seem to act in a way a person does when they are approached by a salesman or some religious zealot trying to convert them; with growing apprehension.

    They are never appear creeped out, nor respond negatively outright – in fact when they leave they say goodbye and are quite friendly. But their body language is clear as day – they are growing uneasy.

    So my question is how to instill trust or a sense of safety within the interaction? How does one give off a vibe of “I just want to have a chat” and have them warmly want to chat in return, not become suspicious or wonder why you are standing there after they already answered how to get to the nearest coffee shop.

    The transition into personal questions feels forced, and well, it is. What reason do I have to be there asking them personal questions when they have already given me the answer to my question? If I reverse the situation I would find myself suspicious as well. Why is this cute girl talking to me? Does she want something? Cute girls never approach me like this; I would half be into it, half be suspicious of it.

    I’m sure this is something subtle that I’m doing or can do to put them at ease. But whatever that thing is, I appear to not be doing it. Any help would, as always, be greatly appreciated! 🙂

    #73765

    Eric Disco
    Keymaster

    Awesome job getting out there consistently. You’re a rock star.
    One of the problems here is that you are trying to combine Step 4 and Step 5. In Step 5, you start to get personal but one of the keys of getting personal is to completely change the subject. It may seem natural to progress from “Where are coffee shops?” to “You seem to know your way around, are you from around here?” The problem with this is that it is confusing to women. It’s like you’re trying to make the move but are afraid to make it. She usually won’t put herself out there and reveal herself because she’s not sure if that’s what you’re asking. They will often just change the subject back to the original opener and say something like, “I am from around here but don’t go to coffee shops a lot.” Now instead of talking about her, you are back to talking about coffee shops. In Step 5, I recommend changing the subject completely with something like, “I get the feeling you’re creative,” or “I get the feeling you work out a lot.” Now it is clear to her that you are asking her about something completely different from your original opener about coffee shops.

    But you will want to work on Step 4 first and get really comfortable staying in interactions longer before working on the transition into personal conversation. It is unlikely she will transition into personal conversation simply from asking an opening question. She typically needs to get comfortable in conversation that is not about her before talking about herself. So learning how to have non-personal conversation in Step 4 is critical before Step 5. Try to stay away from personal questions for now and just work on continuing the conversation in non-personal ways first. Talk about a restaurant you love or a book you read, etc.

    Walking women are not the easiest to get into conversation with. It can be done. I have done it and have gotten dates, but compared to standing or sitting women, it is much harder to have a conversation. Momentum is working against you. For most people, their first instinct is to not give too much to a stranger, even if they find that stranger intriguing or attractive. I recommend you keep trying it with women who are walking, but expect a low rate of return. I would recommend you try this with women whom you can position yourself next to to make this more casual. You’re even better off waiting until they stop at a crosswalk, standing next to them and opening them. Try this in bookstores, supermarkets or sitting next to them in cafes or parks.

    You are correct in that you are probably giving off a vibe that makes them antsy. Make sure that both feet are planted firmly on the ground. Do not move your feel at all until the interaction is 100% over and you say thank you. Then move your feet and walk away. Try to make sure you are standing next to her more than facing her. Speak as slowly as possible, leaving space in between questions. It’s tempting to speak fast to try to keep her there but the faster you speak, the more it seems like you are trying hard to keep her there, which makes her antsy. Be willing to let some women walk away because you didn’t speak quickly enough.

    The fact that these women aren’t creeped out means that you are doing well with Steps 1, 2 and 3. So you are in the right place. Keep practicing this because the more comfortable you get with this, the more comfortable women will get. Expect a lower rate of return on these because this is where the rubber meets the road. It’s not anymore about women just being nice to you, it is about women actually being attracted to and actually wanting to be in a conversation with you. A high rate of rejection is common here (80-90%) but the women that do continue are truly into you. Even the best guys out there get a lot of rejection at this stage. There are some days I go out and no interaction will ‘hook.’ It’s all part of the game. So keep trying to improve, keep working on the earlier stages to improve your chances of attraction (speaking loudly, etc.).

    Also know that just because an interaction doesn’t hook, it doesn’t mean you did something wrong. Don’t keep changing things every time an interaction doesn’t hook. She may be shy, have a boyfriend, etc. I recommend setting up a script and doing that exact scrip over and over a number of times. You can even write your script here and I can help you with it. If you think your words aren’t working, choose something else and try out both the new one and old one at least 10 times before you decide one works better than the other. There is A LOT of statistical noise in this game. One woman may be into you no matter what you do and say while another may not be into you no matter what you say and do. At this point the numbers become important.

    Eric

    #73766

    Liberator
    Participant

    Thanks for taking the time to write that reply, Eric. There’s some really good stuff in there.

    I hadn’t considered that steps 1-3 are almost rejection proof (unless you’re seriously doing something wrong) so of course when I hit a bit of resistance the immediate assumption is that something is wrong. Turns out, this is just the nature of the beast.

    This is both hopeful and a bit discouraging. A 90% rejection rating sounds like a true test of commitment. Which I see now is why the book puts so much focus on one’s own personal attitude and positive take away from each interaction.

    Does this percentage change or is 9/10 interactions will not hook from here on out? That sounds difficult.

    As for my script, if I’m walking around outside (which is easiest since my house is a few feet away from a heavily populated trail) my go to question is one of two:

    “Hey! Do you know how far down this trail goes?”

    -answer-

    “Cool, I’ve been trying to get out and explore the city more. I’ve lived here for years and I have no idea where this trail goes!”

    -response or says nothing-

    “Is (name of park) down that way?”

    -response-

    “Is that a good place to bring dogs? I’ve been thinking of getting a dog.”

    This is usually where they seem like they want to leave and I let it go.

    My other opener is:

    “Hey! Is there somewhere around here to get a really good cup of coffee?”

    -answer (usually points to starbucks)-

    “That’s great but I’ve been really wanting to find a coffee place with a lot of character, know any of those?”

    -response-

    “I realized I’ve been living here for years and I don’t have a coffee shop I really like.”

    -response or nothing-

    “I would love to just read a good book at a cool coffee shop, read any good books lately?”

    -response or usually starts to move away-

    If in a market:

    “Hey! Know anything about this?”

    -answer-

    “I’ve been trying to cook new exiting things lately. Do you think X recipe would be any good?”

    -answer-

    “I want to make something to bring to a dinner party. But maybe I should just get something already made, what would be good for a dinner party?”

    -answer or doesn’t care and just says whatever-

    “Do you like to cook?”

    -response or loses interest-

    I tried to take the things from the book and add a bit of a personal spin on it so it came out sounding more natural, but of course, please feel free to edit any/all of this. 🙂

    #73767

    Eric Disco
    Keymaster

    Your success rate will depend on the type of interaction. If you stop someone walking in the opposite direction on a path in the woods, your success rate may be around 10 percent. If you sit next to someone in a park and talk to them, your success rate will usually be a lot higher.

    Your initial questions and statements listed above are fine. They are shallow and that’s how they should be. “What’s something good to bring to a dinner party?” “I was out looking for a book.” But then transition into something deep and meaningful as fast as possible. If she is attracted to you, she’ll try to go there with you.

    The objective of this step is to get a conversation going without asking her to reveal personal information about herself (what she does, where she lives, etc). It’s not as hard as you may think. Asking her what she does for a living isn’t really a conversation. Those are just questions. A conversation is something that makes her think or search her feelings.

    Think about two things here:

    1) Statements that will lead to deeper conversation
    2) Statements that will reveal deeper things about yourself

    You could use something like this as a template.

    “I recently read an article/study/book that said people spend 15 percent of their lives thinking about things they’ll never do. I started thinking if I had all that time back, what would I do. I decided I would live in every city in the world for six months. What would you do?”

    Another one

    “I was just out getting a book on philosophy. Do you like philosophy? Me and my friends have dinner parties where we discuss philosophy. At the last one we talked about regret. I decided that the only thing I really regret is not living in the moment. What do you regret?”

    Coming up with some of these might require some exploration. Think about deeper conversations you have with your friends. Read some philosophy or psychology book. What questions about life interest you? Have you seen any movies lately that blew your mind?

    Focus on bringing value rather than trying to get value. Instead of asking her what book she read recently, talk about a book that you read or movie you watched and what was interesting about it. Try to pick something open-ended where there is no clear answer. Try to really listen to what women say and remember what they say, because they often provide excellent subject matter to discuss in your next interactions.

    Eric

    #73768

    Liberator
    Participant

    Really good feedback – this seems all perfectly on point. Couple final follow up questions for ya:

    1) Since I am on step 4 and not 5, do you recommend I integrate and use the ‘deeper scripts’ you just posted today or keep it light and fluffy with my small talk scripts for now and then move to them later?

    2) How do I know when I’ve mastered step 4? The book says I’m proficient when I regularly get into ‘continuing conversation’ but in your feedback above you mentioned that almost 80-90% of conversation won’t hook. What indicator of success do you use when you’re working with such a high margin for failure?

    3) I’m just curious as to why someone sitting has such a high success rate than someone walking? I understand that the one walking are in the middle of going somewhere, but I feel like their impetus to leave the interaction is the same in both scenarios. If they are sitting down they might be thinking, “Who is this guy and when is he going to leave? I’m a captivate audience – I just want to sit here and enjoy my book in peace.” where as a woman who is hiking along a trail thinks more or less the same thing, “Who is this guy and why is he asking me questions? I just want to continue with my hike.” Like, why is one a high rate of success and the other is not when both seem as equally prone to the same qualifiers and disqualifies despite logistical momentums? If there are approach situations that are better than others, can they be listed in order of rate of success? This seems like it could be an extremely helpful tool.

    4) You mentioned sitting down with women at a park or cafe. How do you do this? In the book you talk about asking to sit down after using a direct approach. However, asking for directions and then asking to sit down seems like counter actions. I’m curious how you sit down when going indirect; do you just plop down and then ask for directions?

    Thanks for all the answers Eric, you’re helping take the mystery out of one of the most confusing, difficult, yet rewarding things I’ve ever set out to do in my life and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. 🙂

    #73769

    Eric Disco
    Keymaster

    1) Since I am on step 4 and not 5, do you recommend I integrate and use the ‘deeper scripts’ you just posted today or keep it light and fluffy with my small talk scripts for now and then move to them later?

    Try the deeper stuff if you think you can do it. You sound like you’re ready for it. If you can’t, drop back to the lighter stuff and practice with that first.

    2) How do I know when I’ve mastered step 4?

    I would say at least a few conversations a week.

    3) I’m just curious as to why someone sitting has such a high success rate than someone walking?

    If she feels a ton of attraction, it won’t make any difference whether you’re walking or sitting. But most guys don’t generate a ton of attraction right at the start. If she’s already sitting there, she is more likely to take a chance and talk with you than if she is heading somewhere. Attractive women have learned to automatically say no to most people. So it is harder to break that momentum if she is preoccupied.

    If there are approach situations that are better than others, can they be listed in order of rate of success?

    Absolutely. This is dependent on the person, particularly because YOU will feel more comfortable in certain situations. For me, these are situations where it is easier to get into a conversation:

      quieter environments are better than louder environments
      sitting next to her is better than standing next to her is better than walking next to her
      walking in the same direction is better than walking toward me
      stopped at a crosswalk is better than walking
      headphones in makes it a little harder
      her face buried in her phone makes it a lot harder
      if she’s talking on the phone, it’s impossible to be indirect
      reading a book or magazine is better than looking at her phone
      typing on her phone is worse than just looking at it
      facing toward me is better than facing away
      doing something, like reaching into her bag or looking at food on the shelf, makes it harder
      alone is better than with a friend
      an environment that has less movement, like a bookstore, is better than an environment where they move around a lot, like a supermarket
      a more crowded bench with one seat next to her is better than a completely empty bench, because I can sit closer to her on a crowded bench
      a girl seated with no seats anywhere near her is the hardest, because I have to stand and talk while she sits

    This is just off the top of my head. Keep in mind that you can’t wait for the ideal situation before taking action, particularly when you are practicing the earlier steps.


    4) I’m curious how you sit down when going indirect; do you just plop down and then ask for directions?

    Yes. There are a few ways to do it. Sit down and ask for directions. Ask for directions and start talking with her and at a certain point, say, “I gotta take off in a minute to meet my friends but I’m gonna join you for a second.” Or you can ask if it’s okay if you join her.

    Thanks for all the answers Eric, you’re helping take the mystery out of one of the most confusing, difficult, yet rewarding things I’ve ever set out to do in my life and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. 🙂

    Glad I could help!

    Eric

    #73784

    Liberator
    Participant

    This is all so helpful, Eric. Thank you.

    I’ve been utilizing what you’ve told me in this thread over the past week and it’s been yielding better results. I’m still getting stuck but for the most part the path is clear.

    Someone mentioned in another thread there is audio of you doing these approaches or something? Is there a place to get those? I think some real life context to all the concepts you’ve communicated here would be instrumental.

    Thanks!

    #73785

    Marshall74
    Participant

    Liberator good job on your efforts. I got the audio interactions and they will definately aid you in feeling it better.

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