"spontaneous" vs "structured"

[Cartoox]

Seems like a lot of the threads here end up in some kind of “spontaneous” & “ natural” vs “scripted” & “ structured “ debate, so I’ll throw my 2 cents in.

Back in the spring of 2013, Eric offered the Advanced tactics workshop. I was lucky in that I got coaching from Both Eric & Lee.
This I believe was the game changer for me.

For one, they focused more on what comes after the opener. Everything from the importance of vibe to body language, to conversation topics and how best to present ourselves. Stuff that other coaches and bootcamps don’t really talk about or teach. The importance of being edgy, the importance of maintaining tension and pushing the comfort zone during approaches and conversations. All this I learned from them.
I remember sitting in front of Eric telling him I wanted something more “natural” and “ spontaneous” and less scripted.
Eric told me straight up that we’d be working mostly off scripts, but that we would be developing these scripts to suit our individual backgrounds and personalities. The way to become a natural was simply to keep practicing the structure and scripts till it felt natural.
I sat there thinking to myself “Hell, I’ve come all the way to NYC, and these guys are the masters, so stop arguing and lets just go ahead & do it their way“
Over the next couple of days and nights Eric & Lee worked with me and another fellow student to prep our individual scripts, life stories and transitioning from openers into full conversations…
Structured ? yes, but also a more consistent way to not only open women but more importantly, to convert those approaches into dates and more.

I learned the importance of presenting a more honest, but edgier version of myself ( I put up a lot of resistance to Eric for that back then but now I understand…hahahaha) . I learned to improve my body language, eye gaze and posture .
We practiced in bars, the subway and in parks. And I began to get a hang of it.

Spring and summer of 2014 saw me practice in earnest, along the lines of what I had learned from Eric & Lee. I worked on incorporating the whole message into my behavior, so that eventually, the stuff we worked on has become internalized and is now a part of me. Lines that would feel awkward 6 months ago now flow out naturally. Attitudes that felt a bit rude before now have become 2nd nature. ( years of lousy “nice guy” social conditioning takes time to overcome I guess )

These days, I almost never lie or bullshit to girls. I don’t feel the need to. More often, I challenge them and my attitude has become more like “ I can possibly like you, but I can also walk away “, which suits my personality.

[The_Hurricane]

Awesome! Thank you, bro. Any coach would get a little teary eyed reading something like this.

–Lee

[ryano]

Now I do appreciate what’s going on in this thread between you two. And I don’t want to ruin a sentimental moment here.

HOWEVER,

Eventually those training wheels need to come off. Just like music: you learn scales, you learn chords, you play tabs that you read online. But eventually to learn to make your own music, you need to just PLAY — ie just improvise. That’s where the fun really happens.

Read my thread about Openers. Now I’ll show you how Hurricane opens:

“You look like you’re thinking deep deep thoughts”
(hmm not bad, she does look like she’s thinking)

“You look like you’re thinking deep deep thoughts”
(uhhh… ok maybe)

“You look like you’re thinking deep deep thoughts”
(uhhhh… no)

“You look like you’re thinking deep deep thoughts”

(need I say more? :))

——————————–

You see, when you train to be a robot that’s exactly what you’ll become. I bet the “I figure out the secrets of the universe” is also a part of every single discussion.

Mystery Method was also rigid like this…
“Excuse me, who lies more men or women?”. Guys would chant this line again and again until they got blue in the face.

Improvising is a SKILL damn it. You don’t become better at improvising if you’re not practicing it. And why do you want to improvise? to not be an android.

You know who’s the best students for following structure. I’ll show you:

And here’s another student that will do well with this “scripts” philosophy:

……………

For the rest of us that actually have a SOUL we need spontaneity, creativity, and being off the cuff. That’s what speaks to emotions. Tailoring shit to people, not rigidly rehearsing a line that will generically work for everyone. Be NATURAL.

[The_Hurricane]

So funny! I was just about to write a post called “Open anyone anywhere (Lee’s version)” with all of the picture links you had in yours and under each one write “You look like you are thinking deep, deep thoughts”! Each and every one. Zero thought. And you did it for me. Amazing. Yes, you go on and invent one thousand fake reasons to open girls when all you really want to do is start a conversation. I’ll stick to my one reason.

–Lee

[ryano]

My point was that your openers are limited.

What are you gonna do when a girl walks past you quickly down the street. Chase after her and say “You look like you’re thinking deep deep thoughts?” That’s sooo weird!

Or maybe a girl is dancing in a club. “You look like you’re thinking deep thoughts?”

Or a girl that’s playing an instrument. “You look like you’re thinking deep thoughts?”

Or drunken girls yelling next to you after a night out.

….

I mean, am I the only one who finds that insane?

[The_Hurricane]

I teach exactly two openers, Deep Thoughts and Conversation About Boys and one of them is just perfect for all of the situations you’ve described. To give you an example, I don’t run after girls on the street because that’s a hell of a lot of effort to spend on someone I know nothing about, but when I’ve done demos for students, I would walk ahead of the girls, slow down to match their pace, look over and say… you guessed it 🙂 Works like a charm. And then I have a real conversation with girls, a conversation about things that matter. I don’t banter on like a dancing monkey, which is what you advocate. But hey, to each his own. You want to keep trivializing women, enjoy your one-date lifestyle. I guess that’s how long it takes them to find out that what they got in the first thirty seconds is what they can expect as long as they know you.

–Lee

[ryano]

To me that sounds like a chore. not a form of self expression. not freedom.

That’s like a painter who paints the same drawing every day.
That’s like a musician that can play only one tune.

That is not Art. the great eric disco would agree with me.

[The_Hurricane]

Duh! Gee, thanks for noticing. That’s exactly what Eric and I call it, pickup science. What do you think all those studies are about, dude? Everything I do is based on reputable studies of social dynamics. When I started, I did what you do. I winged it. I even taught winging it for Pickup 101. My sets looked like all of those videos you post, conversations filled with empty banter and lukewarm number closes with girls I knew nothing about, girls who knew nothing about me. It wasn’t until I started to think about what is the fastest way to get to the conversations that are important to me that I started to get the kind of girls I wanted. And that’s when my students started to see great results as well. There are a few of them on here, if you haven’t noticed. Look at the post by Cartoox. Eric and I taught that class together. Eric is great precisely because he believes in trying to systematize as much of game as possible. His book is the only systematic, step by step method for overcoming approach anxiety. Everyone else is winging it.

–Lee

[dyonisos]

I enjoy this disscusion. Its always good to confront diffrent points of view.

To lee.

“I teach exactly two openers, Deep Thoughts and Conversation About Boys and one of them is just perfect for all of the situations you’ve described. To give you an example, I don’t run after girls on the street because that’s a hell of a lot of effort to spend on someone I know nothing about, but when I’ve done demos for students, I would walk ahead of the girls, slow down to match their pace, look over and say… you guessed it :-)”

Did you notice that hot girls are almost always fast walkers?
Sometimes its really hard to catch up wth them. To get ahead of them you literally need to run. Now, i dont see this opener really good in such situation.

Probably if you live in NYC you can easily find hot girls that are walking slowly of sitting etc but I am not so lucky to live in such big city. Most hot girls i see are walking and walking fast.

[zhelyazko]

Well, the way I see it if a girl is walking fast and you cannot open with deep thoughts, but you really do want to go talk to her – just go direct: Hey, I noticed you walk past me and you look fucking delicious.

Just need to think of a short anecdote to say afterwards. I have been thinking of just going: “you know, you looked like you were having deep thoughts about something before I stopped you?…”

I have yet to test it. Will post back when I do.

[ryano]

Zhelyazko, are you guys incapable of thinking for yourselves? Sure go ahead and open her direct. But then do you NEED to say “delicious” or “deep thoughts” or “fucking”? You don’t have to parrot something some random dudes on the internet told you to say. lol. OMG! I got it, here’s one! how about “how’s your day going?” does hurricane approve??? oh no it doesn’t display enough value! besides you didn’t say “sister”. Okay, so maybe we’ll say “sister, how’s your day going!” oh wait I didn’t say “delicious” like GlenP says — okay “delicious sister, how’s your day going!” oh wait I didn’t say do you sing do you dance “delicious sister, how’s your day going! do you sing do you dance?”…

ARRRGHHH!!!!. just say “how’s it going?” quit being so weird. Be NORMAL. that’s all girls want guys to be. To think for themselves and be normal. And the majority of you are so far from normal you need to train yourselves to be human again. (not r2-d2)

[SomeguyUK]

At the end of the day man, we are all here to learn. There is nothing wrong with trying someone else’s approach. If you are learning an instrument, you have to start off playing in someone else’s style before you can develop your own. I think it’s a similar situation with meeting women.

We can all make our own theories about what works and what doesn’t. There’s only one way to find out what’s gonna work for us personally, and that’s to try stuff out.

[The_Hurricane]

@zhelyazko, @dyonisos

Exactly correct. When I absolutely have to sprint after a girl and go direct, that’s exactly how I do it.

Me: “I saw you rushing by and had to come tell you how cute you look.”
Her: “Thanks!”
Me: “Before I stopped you, you looked like you were thinking deep, deep thoughts.”
Her: “Nope. Just late to work.”
Me: “Really? That’s all? You know I read an article that said we spend…”

I’m right back where I want to be. Works just as well. We can get to the topics I want to talk about, not the color of her bag or whether she likes cherries or strawberries.

That having been said, dyonisos, if you live in a city where the only day game you can do is sprinting after women who are rushing about, you are at a big disadvantage. Most of the time, they’re not just rushing to avoid men. They’re on their way somewhere and there is some time pressure when you stop them.

But what about other places for daygame? Whole Foods, Starbucks, the subway, bus stations, college campuses, shopping malls, museums, art galleries, parks, bars, restaurants, etc., etc. You can physically run after women if you absolutely have to, but most of the time, you shouldn’t have to. I have friends who live in cold cities. The game goes indoors during the late fall, winter, and early spring, but there’s still plenty of game.

–Lee

[ryano]

“You know that we read an article that we spend 14% of our lives thinking about things that we won’t do..?”

You’re an act dude. sorry to tell you this. all your conversations are duplicated there’s nothing authentic about what you’re teaching these poor guys.

I’m just here to try and disinfect them from unoriginality. To encourage them to start thinking for themselves, because that’s what women want men to be. Leaders, not followers.

And SomeguyUK, if you were right.. if it was just training wheels ie a “temporary thing” then I’d be for it. But your teacher here, is still on script. So what does that tell you?

[The_Hurricane]

Yes, that is correct. You should always be talking about things that are important to you, not the color of women’s bags or whether they like cherries or strawberries. The things that are important to you don’t change every second. They hardly ever change. These are not training wheels. You should find the fastest way to get from the opener to the things that matter to you, then wash, rinse, and repeat. Simple.

–Lee

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