Pissed girl off with opener

[SomeguyUK]

Had an interesting/funny experience last night.

I was out drinking in a bar, not really focusing on picukup but just having fun. Anyway, I open this group of girls with my usual opener ‘you guys look far too clean to be in here’.

Girl A says “that’s rude!” and immediately turns away from me to talk to another friend.

Girl B seems curious and starts talking to me. Within a few minutes she realises I’m cool and she re-introduces me to Girl A saying ‘this guy is alright actually’ (or something like that).

So I start talking to Girl A again but she is REALLY hung up on what I said. She just keeps saying how it’s not a good opening line because it’s judgemental. They were preppy looking girls in a rock bar, so maybe she felt I genuinely meant she wasn’t welcome there (I look like a rock dude).

I said “Ok then, what would you suggest I use as an opening line?”

She says “I dunno….I would say ‘nice shoes’ maybe?”

I had to bite my tongue a little bit because I didn’t want to tell her that I have been practising hitting on girls for a long time now and I have tried things like that. But I did say that I know for a fact that complimenting a girl’s shoes in a bar is not a very good way to get into conversation.

I told her I have used my opening line on many girls, and she was the first one ever to get upset. I also said that when I go out I want to meet cool, fun people, and if someone doesn’t get the joke, they are probably not the kind of person I want to hang out with anyway.

Then something interesting happened.

The dynamic changed.The girl started to give me some subtle IOI’s. I had stood my ground and showed I wasn’t afraid to disagree with her, and I guess it won her over. She also started backpedalling a bit, I did eventually say I was sorry if I offended her and she says ‘oh I wasn’t offended’.

I also remembered Lee’s advise about qualifying, and I asked her if she reads books (as that’s something I care about).

I’m not that interested in the girl any more as I thought she was a bit of a drag (she was cute though). But just for the hell of it I asked her if she has a boyfriend, and she said yes.

Anyway, during this conversation her group decide to leave, and they drag her off as they walk out. I think one of them was the boyfriend.

Then something else weird happens. Girl B comes back in her bar on her own and walks up to me. I was a bit drunk so I just say ‘heyyyy!’ and give her a hug. I say ‘I thought you were leaving’ and she said ‘yeah my friends have left’. And then before I can say anything else, she walks out again!

I’ve no idea what that was about. I guess my drunken hug put her off.

Anyway, it was interesting to see how self-assuredness can turn a situation around. It also made me want to try even more risky openers. @The_Hurricane -I can now see the value in trying to stay in that grey area between being cocky and really pissing girls off!

[ryano]

1. you didn’t piss her off. she’s just bullshitting
2. don’t tell her you use this “opener” on multiple girls that’s weird. (even if it’s true)
3. NEVER apologize for something you do. and NEVER ask girls for their opinion on how to open or any other questions about seduction. Not only do they not know — because girls don’t have the slightest idea on how to initiate or escalate, nor have they ever tried it. But If they coach you on pickup you lose them because they mark you as indecisive and not having your own backbone. which are qualities that are attractive to them. remember, you’re the guy that ALWAYS knows what to do. and even if you make mistakes, you never acknowledge those mistakes. everything you do is right. you laugh off anything that isn’t “right”. remember that. your response should’ve just been “whatever” with a smirk and then asked them how their night is going.
4. ANY opener works at night. your opener, the one with the shoes, or even just saying “hi how’s it going?”. it’s alot more crucial what happens after the opener anyway and how you react to things.
5. screen for logistics. girl A told you she had a boyfriend so she’s done.
6. the hug wasn’t weird to girl B when she came back. she probably wanted you to take her home but you didn’t act on it. you probably didn’t act at all / didn’t act decisive (apart from a lazy drunken hug) which is why she left. next time just grab her hand and tell her you’re going with her for another drink (and take her home).

[SomeguyUK]

I wasn’t into girl B – she was ok to talk to but I wasn’t attracted to her. But it was just weird cos she literally walked off before I could say anything else, the whole interaction was about 10 seconds if that. Maybe she just had a moment of shyness, or wanted to say goodbye.

Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t trying to get ‘pickup help’ from girl A. At that point in the conversation I just kind of wanted to bust on her for not having a clue about meeting people.

Some solid advice there anyway man, thanks.

[The_Hurricane]

@SomeguyUK,

I think you got a taste of what it’s like to (partially) reverse the power dynamic. That happens to me and my students all the time. We do it deliberately. A business mentor of mine used to call it “putting the buyer gently on the defensive”. By doing that, you can get girls to chase you, initiate contact by emailing you after you meet them, and ask you whether they will see you again after a date. The more genuine your qualifiers, the better. In other words, if you are talking to her about things you genuinely love, things that are important to you, your qualifiers will be more effective. Here is the most important part of this. The most desirable women in the world don’t need you for sex. They can get sex and validation anywhere and any time. So what do they want? They want to meet a high value man. How can they tell you’re high value? In part, they can tell by how selective you are. If you’re all over them from the very first moment and they have no doubt that they are already qualified to meet all of your standards, guess what? You will not be nearly as attractive to them as men who are more skeptical and aloof. To get the most desirable women, you have to learn to behave like the most desirable men, men who are always a little skeptical that the woman standing in front of them is good enough for them.

–Lee

[ryano]

“To get the most desirable women, you have to learn to behave like the most desirable men, men who are always a little skeptical that the woman standing in front of them is good enough for them.”

Meh, I don’t buy this. If I see a hot girl and she fits the bill as far as looks, she’s pretty much qualified. Afaic, that’s the only thing that qualifies a girl to me. (unless she’s really mean or stuck up). But I don’t really put so much emphasis on their personalities as much as their looks. only after sex do their personalities start to matter bc at that point I need to decide if I’d like them for a ltr. but I sure as hell don’t do that from the start, I wouldn’t get laid if I did. if we’re both judging eachother on personalities then most likely we’re not getting laid any time soon (bc personalities are complex). the moment you start doing what you’re saying, ie acting “high value” from the start as opposed to putting your sexual foot forward the girl sees you as an LTR not just a casual lay. So she tends to judge you harshly. and what ends up happening is you go through this bullshit dance that eats away at time. so yes, you might get a quality gf out of what you’re trying to do. but I can almost guarantee you’re not getting lots of sex from your method. how many new girls have you slept with in the last month? for me it was 3. and these were gorgeous girls. I don’t even approach average looking girls.

so yeah hot girl = I want to have sex with her. I don’t act aloof or any of that stuff. She sees it in my eyes that I want to have sex with her. And I try to be as “sexy” as I can near her. So posture, smile, eye contact, tonality. and when she gives me her number I pursue her. Not in a needy way. but I make my intention clear to her. if she’s lukewarm, I’ll ping her once in blue moon. What I try to do is find her on a day where she is alone or lonely and she responds. even hot girls don’t have men constantly pursuing them. the best are the “yes” girls though. those are the ones that respond to my texts right away and are always down to meet me right away. I prioritize them over anyone else.;)

[The_Hurricane]

@ryano

It doesn’t matter whether you buy it, dude. There are a whole bunch of studies, some of which I posted links to, that support the view that if your mind is made up about a woman, you will not be as attractive to her as when you’re a little skeptical about her. You can keep repeating whatever you believe, but there are no studies that support your point of view, and plenty, including the ones I posted that support my point of view. Even if most of the guys on here just wanted to get laid and nothing else – which they don’t – they would be better off being a little skeptical about the hottest women. That’s what those women WANT! The hottest women can have sex anytime anywhere. You’re shocked that women initiate contact, that they write to me to ask me out? That’s why. You just don’t get it. You’re playing the chasing game. You’re telling us that you’re getting what you want, so that’s OK. But until you come up with some science to back up what you’re saying, maybe you should just accept that everyone may not want to play your type of game.

–Lee

[ryano]

science? studies? dude I have my own personal lifetime of scientific evidence to prove what I’m saying. I tried what you’re preaching when I first got into pickup about 4 years ago. I did it for 2 years, didn’t get me as much sex as I wanted. changed my philosophy about 2 years ago and haven’t ever looked back since.

The problem with today’s men is they are not dominant enough. Everybody’s pussyfooting around women. trying to act “high value” which is a gimmick. Sure women can have sex with alot of non-dominant men but it’s not what turns them on. There’s a few important things that I’ve found out with women that’s so much more important than just about anything.

1. Commanding – this is a big secret of mine. Women are genetically programmed to respond well to commands. I’m not saying in a forceful way mind you. but in a calm way flirtatious way that indicates that you are in charge. basically, you just tell them what you want them to do and they see it as dominant and respond very well to it.

Here’s a G rated example of what I mean:

This is a highschool student but he understands commanding very well. He does this as a joke. but it’s not a joke.. it’s real and women respond to it.

Here’s a more real world example. I was with a girl yesterday in my apartment. We’re having a normal conversation, but it’s getting flirty –touching (hand on thigh etc), heavy eye contact etc… out of nowhere I throw a pillow on the floor. I instruct her to kneel down (i was sitting on a chair). I unzip my pants and she quicky assumes the blowjob position. before we’ve even kissed mind you. I didn’t ask for anything. I just assumed it, and told her what to do. to the uninitiated this doesn’t even make sense. I just told her what I wanted her to do with a slight smirk and she happily did it. commanding+teasing is what turns women on. b/c it indicates two important things: dominance and humor.

Another man would do the bullshit of making out with her first. and then slowwwly take off her bra. and linearly escalate. women don’t want that it turns them off. women want men to do what deep down they really want to do but are afraid to do it. and it turns them on heavily when a man acts on it.

women want men that take the lead. that’s far more important than what you’re saying as far as “be high value” I don’t even know what the hell that means. it’s a primal thing. it has nothing to do with value. I have a lot of money. I live in a nice area. I dress well. I’m good looking. But I’m telling you it doesn’t mean SHIT to women. I’ll argue this point to the death cause I’ve lived it. women like dominance and being flirty and sexuality over everything else. your material possessions, your looks, your “value” is mental masturbation that doesn’t mean anything to women esp if you’re trying to get laid in the shortest amount of time possible.

[The_Hurricane]

Really? That’s how it works? Science is your own experience? It’s not controlled studies performed by researchers in prestigious institutions, peer reviewed and published with the original data? Nonsense.

–Lee

[SomeguyUK]

It seems to me that ‘learning pickup’ is basically just learning to emulate the behaviour of a man who has a lot of choice with women. Until one day, you actually become one.

Ryano, your game is more numbers based, but I think you are still exhibiting ‘high value’ behaviour. Approaching a girl directly, with a lot of balls, is not the behaviour of a ‘normal’ guy with a normal dating life. Nor is the example you gave with the pillow. That is the behaviour of a man who has choice with women.So I think your successes actually support what Lee is saying about ‘high value’ behaviour.

I have to say I am more interested in Lee’s style because I like the way that the ‘dynamic reversal’ felt. It is nice to have the girl trying to win my approval for a change. And it opens it up to become a more fun interaction, I think.

[The_Hurricane]

Here is the thing about personal experiences. Unless you’re a trained statistician performing a fairly complex multivariate regression, personal experiences tell us very little about what is working and what is failing. There are just too many factors in play.

My experience is exactly the opposite of ryano’s. I used to teach natural game and even got ok results, but my game really took off when I started to think about power dynamics. I have taught students who experienced the same improvements. However, all of these personal stories are really not worth very much to someone reading my posts on a web site because it’s hard to determine what I did and whether it correctly represents the approach I think I’m taking.

That is why the only way to decide which style of game really works is to look at serious studies of social dynamics. Should you give a woman more eye contact or less? Should you compliment her more or less? Should you give her more certainty about your interest or less? These, and similar questions should be – and have been! – answered in controlled, peer reviewed studies, not in the streets of New York and London where pickup guys who know nothing about statistics pontificate about the right way to run game.

The amazing thing is that all of these different studies by different people in different institutions are in agreement: women prefer men who are a little skeptical, a little aloof, and – in addition to a preference for good looking women – demand qualities that are not so easy to find.

It makes sense that women should find these men more attractive. Like nothing else, their behavior signals that they have plenty of beautiful women in their lives and are no longer willing to commit much time to chasing pure beauty. It’s a very logical conclusion that the opposite is also true, that if there isn’t enough beauty in a man’s life – if he’s not sure that he can get it any time he wants – he will value it above all else. We see that with some of the guys on this site who are just starting out with game. They get really nervous around beautiful women because there aren’t enough beautiful women already in their lives.

Sociologists and psychologists love experiments that get at the core of social dynamics and evolutionary psychology. So why don’t we see results that contradict the above? Anyone in the field would love to obtain those results. Showing that the existing literature is dead wrong is the dream of every researcher. The reason they can’t prove those studies wrong is that they aren’t.

That’s why I base my game on those studies: there is absolutely no evidence that they are wrong.

–Lee

[ryano]

Lee, I’m not saying you’re wrong at all. If it works for you then it’s all good. But research studies? cmon who cares really. I’m talking about my own experiences here. I could care less what some uptight social scientists do. They sit in a secluded room in a university and come up with theories. I’ve approaches thousands and dated hundreds I’ve put in the work.

so maybe we can agree that there are many different styles of game out there. And of’course we have different personalities as well as being in different stages of our lives. There’s no one size fits all here.

I’m just trying to give a different viewpoint on this to newbs on this board. I’ve done this now for 4 years, putting everything I have in it, I’m talking about hours and hours every day chasing and dating girls. So I know what I’m talking about.

Now in my case, I found that girls aren’t very good at being the hunters. They’re just horrible at it quite frankly. Therefore, I don’t rely on them to do that. So I do it myself.

@SomeguyUK

It’s not so much numbers based. If I take a girl out on a date I usually have sex with her or at the very least a makeout. Actually, I can’t remember the last date I went on where I didn’t make out with a girl. And what I told you about the “pillow” thing is not about abundance. It’s moreso dominance and understanding that girls expect a man to take the lead on things because they’re horrible at leading anything themselves. In fact, their whole essence is passive. That’s why I have a hard time understanding Lee. Here’s an exercise. Sit anywhere, coffeeshop, bar, wherever. And wait for girls to talk to you. Chances are you’ll be waiting a lifetime and they won’t (and winking at her or smiling at her, or taking some kind of initiative doesn’t count). Another example is go on a date with a girl, talk to her about some subject. Wait till she “escalates” ie try to see if she ever goes beyond a conversation. She won’t. She won’t EVER do that. As far as she’s concerned she’ll talk your ears off for 2 hours and then go home. I’ve found after hundreds of dates that women seldom initiate anything beyond a “safe” conversation. So I don’t rely on them to take the date where I want it to go. I initiate and they either go with it, or they don’t – in which case I find a different girl to date. Because one thing I’ve found is that there are MANY girls out there. So maybe you’re right about the numbers thing in this case.

Lee and I have different styles. Like there’s many different styles in fighting. But don’t think that there’s only one way to skin a cat. A guy with a given personality needs to choose the style that fits himself.

[SomeguyUK]

@Ryano

I don’t want to sound bitchy but you’re coming off as a bit ignorant here. ‘They sit in a secluded room in a university and come up with theories’ – that is obviously not what actual science is about. Lee is talking about theories which are tested objectively using the scientific method. That is very different from yours, Lee’s, or my own subjective experiences with pickup.

When I said it seems your game is based on numbers I was referring to how you meet women in the first place. From what I know of your game it seems like by you approach a shitload of girls. By being very direct and sexual, you hook the girls who are horny/lonely/into your look, and you filter out anyone who is not immediately open. Nothing wrong with that. Actually it sounds like a pretty effective way to get laid if you have a lot of bravado, and the time to approach lots of women.

However it does sound like hard work, and it does sound like you have to do a lot of chasing and being very aggressive. I think I’m more interested in a game where at the very least I am on equal footing with the girl, or better still, she ends up chasing me.

[The_Hurricane]

None of the studies to which I provided links were performed in secluded, academic settings. They were all studies of real world interactive environments.

For example, take the speed dating study. At these events, women typically say yes to half of the number of potential matches to which men say yes. Researchers were able to COMPLETELY REVERSE those numbers – making women say yes to almost twice as many matches as men – by changing one little rule of the game. Instead of having women sit still and men move from table to table – the typical speed dating setup – the researches artificially put women into the role of the hunter by having men sit still and women move from table to table. One little rule change and something that most people thought was an immutable law of nature changed completely!

That is just one study but it is not some kind of white lab coat experiment. The implications are universal. They are also consistent with the results that I get in the real world. Women love to chase men and they’re pretty good at it, too. They won’t do it when a man starts off by showing interest and commitment, but they will do it when the rules of the game are changed by someone who understands how to change them.

When an attractive, well dressed man in the prime of his life approaches a woman who is his equal and starts a normal, maybe somewhat flirty conversation, it is not surprising that a certain fraction of interactions are going to lead to a date. I don’t even call that game. That is BIOLOGY. When Janka – a 9.5 in the looks department, and a Harvard educated lawyer – approaches a woman who is an 8 and convinces her to go on a date with him, guess what? That is called BIOLOGY. No surprise there at all.

Game is when a man knows how to transcend the natural limitations of his looks and social status by activating the attraction triggers that a woman is looking for. To do that, it is necessary to understand those attraction triggers. Good academic studies are an important source of insight.

–Lee

[ryano]

Well what I said was a bit tongue in cheek. But unless the research scientist has been pulling hundreds of girls into his room and/or studying this specific vertical niche of what we’re discussing (cold approach pickup) I’m not so interested in what he writes. I don’t do online, speed dating, and/or social circle stuff. What I do is very niche. Also, I mainly draw my conclusions from guys that have lived thru this and my own experiences. Although there are some interesting academic studies that prove what you’re saying is true, I won’t refute that.

@SomeGuyUK

You need to approach alot of girls to see consistent and great results. Now, You could live an average life, I think the average guy has 7 sexual partners in his entire life. So if you’re cool with that then you don’t need to put as much effort. In fact, you’re better off just getting out of this forum and settling down with the first girl you like, which is what most men in our society do.

[ryano]

@Hurricane

In that case I think at this point I’m more interested in biology than game. It’s just been my personal experience that women aren’t reliable when it comes to pursuing men. But if you’ve been able to reverse that then more power to you.

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