Disappointing Trends

[Slim]

The last three girls I’ve been interested in (who have also been 8+) have responded to a ping, been unable to go on the date, and not suggested another time. They’ve all continued responding after the rejection, which could indicate that I’m intriguing enough to date when convenient, but not otherwise (or that they just don’t want to be mean?).

I assume this pattern could emerge from one of many problems, although I am curious if it might generally indicate one more than others. I’m approaching confidently, staying reasonably relaxed, keeping pretty good body language, am well dressed, and I do a lot of qualifying (which tends to make the interaction more left brained than right…). So maybe it’s too logical? I’m also not making things sexual in the approach, which I know is important to polarize. But the initial interactions that led to my last three relationships weren’t sexual, which I guess makes me feel like I don’t absolutely have to do it. Or maybe I’m just having a bad run…

If I can get a girl on a first date I’m generally golden, but if I can’t get her there it doesn’t much matter…

[The_Hurricane]

It’s possible to get dates without sexualizing the conversation, just as it’s possible to get dates without hard qualification, but the quality of the dates and subsequent relationships improve when you start strong. It’s hard to change someone’s initial impression of you. If she thinks you were too cautious in the beginning to take her to the hot zone, that will be her opinion of you for a long, long time, and maybe forever, even as she’s dating you.

You can verify this effect – over many, many approaches – only by alternating between both types of approaches. Otherwise, there is a survivorship bias. You know that none of your three relationships started with a sexualized conversation, but you don’t know that sexualized conversations would have derailed those three relationships. More importantly, you don’t know how many other interactions would have resulted in relationships if only you had been bolder.

The other part of your comment falls into the category of damage control. I am not a big believer in damage control. Most of the time, you can’t turn a flake into a good date. The truth is that few power dynamics can be changed after they go bad. Attraction is created in person, and can only be lost by text or phone. Hence, all of text or phone game is about preserving the attraction you’ve created. You can’t create more. And if you slip up, you can lose what you already have.

Hence, it’s best to keep your text game to a minimum. Ping, get buy in, tell her what to do to get together with you. That’s the model. If she says no, disappear for a while. Ping her again, get buy in, tell her what to do. If you never get buy in – if she never invests in that conversation – don’t even bother asking her out. Just disappear and ping her again in a few weeks.

Why do some girls continue to respond after they’ve essentially said no? Validation. They love to be wanted and it makes them feel good to have a few suitors on the line. Most of those girls can be filtered out by making the conversations bolder at the beginning. They should be genuinely uncomfortable dealing with you unless they also consider you a sexual prospect. If you never put that pressure on them, it is more likely that they can keep you around as a friend if they are so inclined. Nothing wrong with being friends with girls, just as long as you know that offering them that option may mean that you’ll wind up orbiting their star for a long time.

–Lee

[SomeguyUK]

They should be genuinely uncomfortable dealing with you unless they also consider you a sexual prospect.

Lee, do you mind elaborating on what you said here? Are you saying if you are being very bold with her and she is comfortable with it, she is likely attracted to you?

[Slim]

Many thanks, Lee. Could you clarify what it means to get “buy in”. I typically ping, and if she responds I propose a date/time…

[The_Hurricane]

@Slim

What I mean by buy-in is some interest that might be considered more than trivial. They may ask you questions about topics you previously discussed, maybe when you first met. They may try to impress you by telling you about things they did. They may try to compliment you. I don’t consider “How is your day going?” to be genuine buy in. It’s too easy for them and doesn’t demonstrate that they’re trying. If they don’t give you that buy-in, make a statement and end it on that. For example, if they ask me how my day is going, I’ll respond with something clever – like “never, in five thousand years of recorded human history, has a man, prophet, or king had a better day than i” – but I won’t ask them about their day and I won’t follow up with another text. Sometimes, they will try again. If they don’t, I will wait and, if I really have nothing else going on, ping them again in a few days.

If they give me buy in, I don’t like to ask them out. I just tell them where to go and when, like this: “wednesday. 9pm. joe’s pub. epiphanies shall rain from the heavens” If they can’t make it, they suggest another time. Girls appreciate it when you take charge, even if they have to suggest an alternative. Some guys think they’re being considerate when they offer a bunch of options and ask girls what’s convenient. From my conversations with hot women, I’ve learned that they see this nothing but weakness.

–Lee

[The_Hurricane]

@SomeguyUK

Exactly. Girls who are attracted to you don’t mind it when the conversation gets a little inappropriate. They like the fact that you’re confident enough to step outside the boundaries of polite society. That’s a very common behavioral trait of leaders. On the other hand, if you get sexual with girls who are not into you, they’re going to end the conversation and leave. It’s a great filter. It makes women who are into you more into you and it makes women who are not into you leave. What more could you ask for.

–Lee

[SomeguyUK]

That’s gold, thanks dude.

[Slim]

Great stuff.

Lee, in the script we created together, there’s a reference to the study that indicates “women who aren’t close with one or both parents…” etc. I think in some instances I can tell the girl is in a hurry and I don’t have time to get to that (as it follows a story involving my dad).

So what are some other ways to quickly take her into the hot zone?
– Misinterpreting her remarks to be sexual
– Talking about sexual topics in general
– Others?

I assume talking about one of these things should be natural, not a non sequitur? Randomly bringing up that study would be pretty unorganic…

[ryano]

@Slim, girls are random. Stop trying to change yourself for them. To me it seems like you’re trying to be too perfect and forcing a certain behavior to work. don’t waste your time analyzing them, focus on your own needs (getting numbers, setting up dates with girls that actually want to see you, etc)

What I found that works: keep approaching and get numbers, get alot of girls in your pipeline message a handful of them and try to get them on dates. Don’t play the text message game too long with any one of them, just a quick back and forth, try to be a bit flirty with it (like 1-3 texts) and the rest should just be logistics on when to see them– texting with each one before a date shouldnt be more than like 10 messages between the two of you.

A bunch won’t reply, some will. But stop looking at this through the lense of “what am I doing that’s wrong” as opposed to “girls are random, I’ll message some of them, some will, some won’t”. your frame should always be that you did nothing wrong or it’ll fuck up your timing. and never take their lack of response at face value, like you did something wrong or you’re not good enough, etc. They might be doing something (or some guy) when you’re texting them so try again in a week.

And as far as taking her to the hot zone, you might want to do a little bit in text but not too much. a bit of light sexual innuendo is ok. But basically save the hot stuff for the date. And if I may be blunt, before the date, jerk off to some porn, don’t ejaculate but get yourself hot before the date think like half an hour on redtube or something an hour before u meet her– then you’ll notice in the date you’ll be looking at them and talking to them in a certain way (this will all be unconscious to you though, to your logical mind anyway). Just be a horny man and the rest should take care of itself. If the girl is horny too, she’ll jump in the sack with you, provided you bring her back to your apt– if she isn’t, atleast she’ll feel that you’re a sexual man so she’ll be eager to see you on the next date. The worst to be on the date though is Mr. nice guy just wanting a conversation. Or even worse, the game player. so whatever you do, don’t logically think about this like “if I do x, she’ll do Y” instead just feel horny and she will feel it too. And if she doesn’t, get a different date. And as far as those 3 girls are concerned, get atleast 10 more numbers before you even concern yourself with them.

[The_Hurricane]

The gold standard of making things sexual is touch. If you can touch her – at first just to punctuate your conversation, but eventually with more sexual intent – you should.

After that come stories, stories that deal with inappropriate and sexy subjects. For example, if I let the conversation drop and she picks it back up with something boring – like “So do you live around here?” – I might say something like this “Bzzzzzt! Boring topic. Let’s pick a better one. Lets see… (pause) Have you ever kissed a girl?” They usually say yes, to which I say “On a dare? Or because you were genuinely attracted?” After they respond, they usually ask me if I’ve ever kissed a guy. I have a good true life story about that, a scorcher. Having the confidence to tell a sexy story to a total stranger is pretty attractive.

The least effective way of sexualizing a normal conversation is deliberate misinterpretation, innuendos, and humor. Be careful with these. They could do what you intend or they could backfire by making it seem like you’re afraid to talk about these taboo subjects directly.

–Lee

[Slim]

Terrific stuff. God, I’ve forgotten all of this…

Curious, for telling sexual stories, would you wait until you’re a few min into the conversation?

[Slim]

I saw a pickup video recently in which a guy day approaches a very attractive woman, and very confidently starts to hold her hand within the first min of the interaction. It goes generally fine for a few min, he gets her number and she leaves.

It then shows the text interaction, which consists of multiple instances of her flaking – either saying she’s busy and not suggesting another time, canceling a date last minute, saying she’s going to call and then not calling, etc. It was a LOT. The guy persists and is sure to never show any kind of anger. Eventually (I think it took a month?) she goes out with him. We see her come to his place, and he implies they slept together.

A friend of mine is also very persistent and has told me similar stories…

SO – I guess my question is, what do we have to lose by pursuing girls who continue to flake on us. I’m assuming it’s
1) setting up a poor power dynamic for the first date (although can’t this be shifted once you’re in person?)
2) A risk to shifting one’s internal confidence? (although isn’t this abated if you truly don’t care?)

[The_Hurricane]

This is one of my favorite subjects.

1) I wouldn’t go on a date with a girl I had to chase for a month. I’m already skeptical that any girl I meet is good enough for me. Add to that a month of chasing her and having her flake on me and I would lose all interest. Part of what makes me interested in a girl is how much she gets me and thinks I’m cool – in other words, how much she’s attracted to me. I think I’m freaking cool and I’m looking for girls who agree. If a girl flakes on me for a month, can I still convince myself that she thinks I’m freaking cool? That would take a self-delusional hypnosis master.

2) Not only is that date so much less likely to be enjoyable for me, but also the consequences of that date – the ensuing relationship, whatever it may be – are so much less likely to be what I want. The initial power dynamic persists for months and even years. It’s often the reason couples break up years later. My own state of mind is so much more important to me than just getting laid. It’s the most valuable thing I have and when I compromise it by going on a bad date, it affects my interactions with people – not just women – for weeks and even months.

3) When I know nothing about a girl except what I learned when I met her, what am I willing to invest in a first date? 45 minutes to an hour. That’s all. That’s how little I value her before I know more. She knows it. She can smell it. It’s what gives me power over truly desirable women. Will I have that same power if she can smell the desperation of a man who will keep trying for the next month to get her out on a 45 minute date? No way. Learning to hide that desperation is actually harder than learning to be selective.

4) Finally, let’s look at this from a mathematical perspective. The payoff from being persistent is pretty damn small. If you had to chase her for a month, that date is not likely to go very well. Every once in a while, does it result in a spectacular conquest? Sure. (Not for me because I wouldn’t make it that far in the process, but for some men, yes.) However, for every one of those dates, you’re going to go on five bad ones. So it’s not an hour you’re spending on that date, it’s five. Add another half hour per bad date of texting back and forth to set that date up. And add some schedule disruption for flakes, last minute plans broken, leaving you sitting at home alone on a night you could be out with people who are truly motivated to be with you. What is that worth? Conservatively, let’s say the cost is now up to 2 hours per date and we said you’d have five of those to every one successful turnaround. Five times two is ten hours. Do you know how many women who are motivated to be with me I could meet in 10 hours without at all compromising my precious sense of self worth?

–Lee

[Slim]

Really appreciate the response, Lee. It makes sense, although I think it’s very helpful to live in a city where there are myriad gorgeous women every 10 feet. In my city, it isn’t nearly as easy to find attractive women – much less single ones. This doesn’t counteract your argument, but it does give me greater incentive to persevere a little more – with the intention to swing the power dynamic back in my direction once I’m on the date. (You make it seem like this is unlikely, but why? Couldn’t you simply pretend like the previous pursuit didn’t happen, and that you are again the catch? Easier said than done, I know…)

Also, about power dynamics… Can you elaborate on what it means for the guy to have a large power dynamic over the woman? In my mind, having a massive power dynamic (as my dad had over my mom) resulted in him always being right, getting whatever he wanted, being close minded, selfish, insensitive, and growing very little over the course of the relationship as far as I can tell (can you tell I resent him?). I certainly don’t want to be led around by the balls, but I also don’t want absolute control would significantly stifle my own growth (and I know I’ve still got a lot of growing to do). Any thoughts?

[The_Hurricane]

It’s very hard to pretend that you’re in charge and that it really isn’t all that important to you when you’ve just spent a month chasing a girl. She’s not stupid. She knows what you went through to get her there and that history becomes part of her assessment of your value. Whatever you win by being persistent and accepting multiple rejections, you will lose, either with the same girl later in the relationship, or with a different girl when, in your own head, you are not sure that you’re a guy who can walk away from an attractive woman, irrespective of how little interest she’s giving you.

That internal sense of scarcity and need is making you less successful with the most desirable women, whether you know it or not. Those are the women who are most adept at spotting weakness in a man. That weakness is in your body, in your micro expressions, as well as in the words you say to her.

It’s hard enough to become the man who – when he’s not getting what he wants – can walk away from an otherwise exceptional woman. It’s infinitely harder not to walk away but act as if you could. There is something natural about the former, a sense of your own value that is universally admired in literature, film, professional and personal relations. There is nothing natural about the latter. The image of a man groveling at the feet of a beautiful woman as she treats him with indifference is universally reviled. You have to protect your sense of self worth above all things.

Regarding your second point – about your mom’s relationship with your dad – what you are describing is not a good power dynamic. A good power dynamic is one in which both parties – though they may be cautiously optimistic about the relationship – are willing to walk away if they aren’t appreciated or don’t get what they want. There is nothing worse than meeting an attractive woman only to find out that she is needy, insecure, and afraid to butt heads with a man for fear that he will leave her. In other words, when you have good game, you’re likely looking for a worthy opponent, not a pushover.

In this sense, game is not a means of getting a relationship. It is the relationship. When both parties are growing, staying social, staying attractive to others, learning, and finding success, there is subtle pressure on both to keep up, and they remain attractive to each other. Nothing is worse than the promise to stay together no matter what. I don’t want to be with a woman who would stay with me if, for example, I were to stop working, stop pursuing my hobbies and interests, and stop taking care of myself physically. I expect no less from her.

Subtle pressure, a sense of mystery, a tinge of concern that you may not be good enough for your partner, these are the elements of attraction, not emotional certainty, persistence, and unconditional commitment. That’s what Esther Perel writes about in her books. (Watch her TED talk if you don’t have time to read them.)

Ever heard the hokey romantic expression, “You make me want to be a better man”? It’s right on the money. It expresses a subtle insecurity. That’s how a woman should feel with you, always trying to be as good as she can be. And that’s how you should feel with a woman. Game. We are happiest when we meet our most worthy opponent.

–Lee

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