Not Being Outcome Dependent with Women: How Most People Get It Wrong and What To Do Instead

by Eric Disco
Nov 27

One of the most commonly discussed concepts in dating is not being ‘outcome dependent.’

The idea is that during interactions with women you shouldn’t be too focused on getting a specific result. That result could be:

  • getting a good reaction from her
  • getting a phone number
  • getting a date
  • having sex
  • getting into a relationship

The idea is that women can sense when you have an agenda. Instead, you should try to enjoy the moment for what it is and not care so much about what she thinks or does.

This mindset allows you to be more spontaneous and more fun around women. You can take more risks, take initiative to be more sexual, and just be “yourself.” In the end, this ends up getting better results with women anyway.

Being less dependent on outcomes is one of the most important principles of getting better with women-if not the most important. It’s good that people are talking about it.

The problem I see is how people recommend you stop being outcome dependent.

“Stop caring what she thinks!”

“Don’t put her on a pedestal!”

“Be happy and enjoy yourself no matter what!”

“Just have fun!”

Great advice. But understanding something in your mind is different than carrying it out with your body. You may decide that you need to care less about what happens in conversations with women.

You may say to yourself, “Fuck yeah! Who cares what anyone thinks!” You may even tell yourself ahead of time that you aren’t going to try to get any phone numbers from women.

But then you go out into the real world.

You walk into a coffee shop and see your perfect girl sitting there. All of a sudden your body locks up.

It doesn’t matter what you’ve decided ahead of time. Now it feels like the weight of the universe is on your shoulders.

You act needy. You treat her like a goddess. You are super careful around her.

Why do we do this?

Your body reacts to certain situations with muscle memory. When you tie your shoe, you don’t think about it. It’s likely you can’t even explain how to tie your shoe without visualizing it in your mind. But you do it every single day without thinking about it.

The same thing happen in social situations.

For most people, when they meet someone new, 95% of their behavior is automatic. Meeting someone new is a high-pressure situation filled with uncertainty.

Since there is so much pressure, you act in a way to reduce the unpredictable nature of this situation.

You’re as nice as possible. You look for approval that you’re doing the right thing. You try to get as pleasant an outcome as possible to relieve the pressure.

Unfortunately, this comes across as `outcome dependent.’ You’re very careful and act too dependent on getting a friendly reaction from her.

So how do we change this automatic behavior?

If you want to act differently when you’re with women, you need to train your body to act differently.

You do this the same way you learn to do other challenging physical tasks. You start with the easiest, most manageable aspect of that task and move on to more challenging aspects when you’re comfortable with the easier parts.

Let’s say you want to learn how to catch a football while running into the end zone 50 yards away. You would first learn to catch a football from a few feet away while standing. You become comfortable with that. Then you challenge yourself to catch the football while running or to catch the football from further away.

In my program, She’s Six Steps Away, I take the seemingly simple process of approaching a woman and break it into smaller, more manageable steps. You can practice each step and get comfortable with it before moving on to the next step. One of those steps is becoming less outcome dependent.

In this step, you start to verbally interact with women. But you aren’t all-of-a-sudden having full conversations with women. Instead, you place a constraint on yourself to make this easier and more manageable. You start by having very short interactions with women.

You’ll ask a stranger a very simple and mundane question such as, “Hey, where’s Starbucks around here?” When she responds, you say thank you and you walk away from her. You practice this over and over again.

The crucial part here is that you do not continue the interaction. You say thank you and walk away no matter what response you get from her.

Whether she’s super friendly, neutral, or even mean to you, you will say thank you and walk away. Even if she seems like she’s willing to continue the interaction, you say thank you and walk away.

Ouch!

In some ways, missing an opportunity like this is even more painful than getting rejected.

But as you practice this over and over, you teach your body to worry less about getting an outcome because you’re not allowing there to be an outcome.

Because you are responding the same way no matter what her reaction, you start to care less about the reactions you’re getting.

In this way, you train yourself to`not care’ what happens when you start speaking with an attractive woman.

After a while, your body doesn’t react so strongly every time you start talking with a woman. You start to relax and get more comfortable with the uncertainty of social interactions. Then you’re ready for the next step: staying in interactions longer.

The True Importance of ‘Warm Ups’

This step of walking away no matter what is crucial. You can practice this for a few weeks in order to become less outcome dependent. But you can also do this to ‘warm up’ before a day or night out meeting women.

The more you practice saying something simple and walking away from women, the more ‘in the moment’ you become. You start to accept that all social interactions are flavored with uncertainty. You stop predicting future scenarios and instead enjoy yourself in the moment.

Becoming outcome independent is one of the most important thing you can do for yourself when it comes to women. All seduction relies on demonstrating an ability to walk away from situations at your choosing.

Learning to `not care’ when it’s appropriate to not care will save you a world of heartache, from the first meeting all the way up into your deepest relationships. And the only way to not care, is to train yourself to be that way.

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posted in Initiative and Inhibition

COMMENTS
28 responses
TAllagash says:

the above about starting with small interactions is spot on.
i warm up early in the evening by talking to people, bartender, door man, random dude, whoever, just to get the “muscle”working. for some guys, even this is paralyzing. more and more we live in a very very antisocial society and even rather mundane interactions have become awkward. great post and examples provided.

charlie_j says:

Nice post Eric,
I can see now how outcome dependent I am right now :)
When I see a beautiful woman, it’s difficult not to present yourself in a ‘nice’ way so you can get a good impression from her.

Sometimes, I thinks it is a bit unfair when it comes to interacting with beautiful woman. It places a heavy burden on the guy and she takes the easy part..:)

KL says:

Yeah but Mystery had a good line: He would say to a hot girl “You have it tough. I can go talk to anybody I’m attracted to, but you can only talk to the guys who approach you.” Given the vast number of losers and weirdos that constantly approach hot girls, it doesn’t seem so easy after all.

Patrick says:

KL,

Mystery’s line is not that true today. I see many good looking women approach men in my city whether it be in bars, partys, functions and whatnot. This did not happen as often say 20 years ago but women have become quite aggressive today. Don’t kid yourself there.

Hot women do have it pretty easy. They get approached, they pick who they want out of that pool and they do approach. The burden is always on the guy.

Lee says:

I live in New York City. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen a truly attractive woman approach a man in the last five years. Yes, a truly attractive woman has romantic choice, but that choice is limited to the guys who dare to approach her, which is usually a small subset of the population of all males. Sometimes, I will follow a beautiful woman in the New York City subway system just to see how other men interact with her. They all look and try to get close to her, but the man who approaches is still an exception. For the most part, guys just sort of mill about, waiting for her to notice them, which is why beautiful women have that vacant stare and avoid all eye contact.

–Lee

Patrick says:

Lee,

I am in Los Angeles now and have lived in NYC and yes the lovely Cleveland before. I know LA can be a bit different but women here (and I saw this in NYC clubs and bars) do approach men and will start conversations. More so at Museum parties and other cultural affairs. Women do approach men and often. Online too. I put my profile on Match.com and the old Yahoo personnels and women would email me or wink from some decently attractive women. And I am not a “great catch” per say.

As for Mystery and his method, I know I studied Mystery’s stuff for a couple years and approached tons of women and it was horrible. Eric’s stuff works much better for me when it does.

Patrick says:

A good example and a recent one is from a Halloween party about a month ago. Three women came in dressed in killer outfits and were on the prowl. Two were truly stunning and the third girl next door type cute. They came to the bar, I started talking to them, they all asked me to buy them drinks and I did my usual “tell me a good joke first and I will think about it”. Well they told me know that I was no fun and proceeded to hit up a couple of guys on the other side of me. They aksed those guys to have drinks with them (and the guys would buy) and all of them left together. I saw one of the guys a couple of days later and he told me that all of them got laid that night by those women. Now this is a little extreme but it does happen and it happens often today. We guys need help here. We are all schooled to think “women do not get approached that often” and that is just not true. Sorry but I see it alot and its even more prevelant online. Women approach guys all the time.

Lee says:

In bars, this happens very infrequently, and it is almost never a truly beautiful woman who initiates the conversation. The girl who will go home with you if you buy her a drink is a myth, dude. If it were that easy, lots of guys would be getting laid. Yes, average looking girls do sometimes chase boys in night clubs and at parties. In other venues – bookstores, cafes, the subway, the street, stores, etc – it never happens. These other places constitute 90% of your waking hours. Hence, as I said before, women hardly ever approach men, and the most beautiful women are far less likely to approach men than average looking women. Try following a beautiful woman on her travels around a city. The most attractive are approached once every couple of days. I’ve dated models who told me they get approached all the time. I asked how often is all the time. They averaged three times a week! That is nothing. When I am single and looking, I will do five or six approaches in one subway ride from downtown to uptown. As well, I’ve dated quite a few beautiful women who complain that men don’t have the balls to say hello. They stand there peeking at them sideways, barely looking up from their cell phones. Every sane woman in the world is going to do absolutely nothing to meet these men! Why should she? She’s looking for tough, confident, daring men, and the men who are playing sneak-a-peak are not those men.

–Lee

Lee says:

From a paper on this exact subject:

To be sure, there are women in Western cultures who regularly approach men to initiate romantic relationships, but such women are the exception rather than the rule. Although women frequently play an important role in initiating the courtship process (e.g., with eye contact, smiles, or hair flips; see Moore, 1985), even egalitarian men and women expect men to play the assertive, approach-oriented role in romantic relationship initiation and for women to play the more passive role, waiting to be approached (e.g., Clark, Shaver, & Abrahams, 1999; Laner & Ventrone, 1998; Rose & Frieze, 1993).

There’s nothing like science to settle a little dispute on a pickup site.

–Lee

KL says:

I guess it depends what is meant by “all the time.” If “all the time” means say once or twice a week, then sure, a decent-looking woman might initiate an interaction with a guy that often. But it’s not likely to be with sexual intent, maybe friendly intent at best. It’s up to the guy to lead it in a sexual direction.

It also depends on what you call an “approach.” If asking for directions, or asking if this seat is taken in the coffee shop, counts as an “approach” then sure it happens all the time. I don’t consider those to be approaches though. The guy still has to lead and guide the whole thing.

Finally, on your anecdote at the bar, Patrick, two things: (1) Halloween is obviously a very unusual time, women are always way bolder on Halloween, (2) those guys might have initiated something with those girls earlier, or outside, before you saw them. Even really good-looking, well-dressed guys rarely get approached by women that much. You can just ask them.

Patrick says:

When I mean by “all the time” I mean anything from literally asking a guy out or asking a guy to hang out (chick language) to actually going up and saying hello to guys as guys do to gals. I mean real intent, not just can you pass me that salt….

As for really good looking guys, it depends. Here in LA, really good looking guys do get approached and propositioned. In Cleveland I had some friends that would be the preverbial tall, dark and handsome and they did ok…but they rarely were without women or numbers.

Sure Halloween is a bit extreme and unusal, but my point is that it happens and it happens more so than we are being taught. Online again is very much the case. Maybe because its kind of being indirect while being direct but I have a few friends (tall, dark, handsome) that get 10 winks or emails a week from some pretty good looking women. And some of them turned out to be real dates. That does not happen to me like that but I just had 5 winks over the last two weeks from mostly decent looking women. Now are they real? I dont know. Is it the holiday thing? Hard to say but again the women took the iniative. While Lee did kindly provide scientific info (thanks there!) its not so realistic as I have experienced.

Ariel says:

Patrick, I think some of the disagreement is because you are talking about situations where there are is some social context – e.g. a cultural event at a museum. In my experience, these events can have the feel of a social circle situation. So an approach there, is very different from a really cold – 0 celsius:-) – approach at a clubstreetcoffee shopshopping mallsubway ect which I think is extremely rare for a hot woman to do. And you do pay a price for the easiness – the social circle feel is not the same exciting energy as the cold approach – it is not the excitement of `stepping out of the matrix’ for a moment

KL says:

Online is a different animal, it favors tall, fit white men between 28 and 40 with a high-status sounding career (lawyer, doctor, etc). So if you match those criteria, sure you’re gonna get plenty of winks. Not necessarily dates though.

But as far as real world, I haven’t been taught anything, I’ve just observed countless scenarios and it’s rare that a woman approaches a man. Most men agree with me, including some very attractive guys. Your experience is just not shared by most people.

The only exception I can think of is a very high value situation, i.e. private parties attended by big business/ entertainment guys, or hidden bars where only those “in the know” hang out, and so on. In those scenarios, the men will overwhelmingly have very high value, so the tables turn and the competition is more on the female side.

So if you roll in those circles out in LA, it makes sense you would see that a fair amount.

MrAntiquity says:

In general, if a woman full on APPROACHES, I’d see it as a red flag. Turns me off, to be honest–even if she’s attractive. It’s the ‘I’m single and obviously looking’ kind of thing.

Subtler approaches–a look, a girl stands near you in a bar, initiating a conversational comment due to proximity–that does happen fairly often (and is a good thing), although guys make one of two mistakes: either they

a. don’t recognize it at all
or
b. completely over-recognize it ‘Dude, she totally wants me!’

neither of which turn out well.

So the kind of hi-powered approaching that Patrick’s talking about–I’m sure it exists in some circles, but it’s something that I honestly haven’t personally witnessed and it describes a seen-and-be-seen environment that I wouldn’t want to associate myself with.. I’m a low-key guy and I like low-key environments… also, the women are just as good looking, but less likely to be out to prove something.

Socialkenny says:

Do women even full on approach? Not that I know of. The most they’d do is just give AI (approach invitations) and make a remark and hope that you over hear. But I don’t think I ever witnessed a girl full on approach blatantly.

mks says:

My experience in Winnipeg is that women will occasionally initiate a conversation with a directed remark on something going on…but that is the most (i.e. You need to reading and push the interaction forward after that point)

Socialkenny says:

For newbies though, not being outcome-dependent is a tricky thing to balance.

Easier said that done. But this is just 1 of those things you can better manage with experience in field and with women.

Sam says:

>All seduction relies on demonstrating an ability to walk away from situations at your choosing.

Eric, this sounds interesting … could you elaborate a bit? Thanks!

Eric Disco says:

Particularly for women, attraction is about creating an air of doubt in her mind as to whether she ‘has’ you. You want to make her feel like if she were slightly less cool than she is, you wouldn’t be into her. This keeps her challenged and keeps her constantly trying to win you over.

In small ways, throughout the seduction, you keep letting her know that you are still considering walking away from her. That if she stopped talking with you, you feel like it may just be for the better anyway.

On the other hand, when you have to have her, you become needy. You become careful. You don’t challenge her. You become boring to her.

Eric

Rick says:

This is why I do not believe in that old axiom “Attraction is’nt a choice.”

Your comment “You want to make her feel like if she were slightly less cool than she is, you wouldn’t be into her. This keeps her challenged and keeps her constantly trying to win you over” totally proves this. Why would she want to win a guy over? It is because she chooses this guy and wants him. Women look at men like they are shopping. They want something and they go for it. So If the woman wants this particular guy, she will continue to go along with the teasing and stuff that will “keep her guessing” but is if she is not attracted or chooses not to want this guy then nothing will work. It will not matter if there is a challenge or not. She has no interest and chooses not to participate or “shop.”

Lee says:

Rick,

As Eric’s most recent article shows, women are usually not in control of their interactions with men. It is only later that they realize what they should have done and are surprised by what they actually did do. This is why a man with good game has a huge advantage over a man with no game. Good game is why women are attracted in the first place, not because they choose a man before he opens his mouth. It makes no sense that evolution would prefer the survival of women who choose men based on brute strength and good looks while entirely overlooking men with courage, leadership, and social skills.

–Lee

Rick says:

Lee,

Perhaps you can help here. How would you define “game”? The term is used all the time I am a bit confused on what it really means. What does it truly mean? Nobody really explains it. It is a term thrown around alot but can you help explain what say “Game” or “Good Game” really is ?

Rick says:

And how would “game” overcome natural advantages? Example say a guy that is shorter, balding and not that most handsome vs. a guy that is taller, good athletic build and is the stereotypical “ideal” for women. How does “game” overcome those natural advantages in pursuit of an attractive woman?

Lee says:

Rick,

For the one species that has dominated all others on this planet almost entirely due to its intelligence, it is absolutely foolish to assume that females choose suitable males by health markers in exactly the same way that, say lions do. There is overwhelming evidence that human females are very well equipped to detect signs of dominant social behavior, risk taking, and social intelligence. These are the elements that one can learn through game, elements that are better predictors of genetic success than height, hair, or facial symmetry.

–Lee

Lee says:

Rick,

Here is my definition of game in the context of the topics discussed on this site: Game is a way of interacting with women that mimics the behavioral patterns of the most desirable men. Women are culturally and biologically programmed to recognize these patterns and are attracted to the men who exhibit them. Some of the behavioral patterns of the most desirable men include social dominance, social intelligence, sexual selectivity, and risk taking. If you can behave in a way that demonstrates these qualities, you will attract desirable women.

–Lee

Rick says:

Lee,

Got it

Thanks for taking the time Dude!

Rick says:

Lee,

You still have not explained what “game” actually is

Then why are height and hair and facial symmetry so favored by women if they are not innate predictors of success?

Also what are those elements one can learn thru game?

Lee says:

Rick,

I gave you a complete definition of game. I also explained that health markers (looks, height, etc.) do work but, in a species that relies primarily on intelligence for survival and success, are not as important as social skills and daring. If I were to go beyond this, I wouldn’t be defining game, I would be telling you how to implement game. That’s beyond the scope of one post. That’s what this entire site is about.

–Lee

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