Should You Go For the Kiss?
by 
Eric Disco
This post is brought to you by my good friend “Hurricane” Lee.
One of the most pressing questions I get from guys is when to kiss a girl. Do you try to kiss her when you first meet? On the first date? Later?
On the one hand, pushing sexual escalation is almost always a good thing. Kissing is a natural next step in sexual escalation.
On the other hand, kissing is an extreme form of interest. If you go to kiss her, she knows you’re very, very interested.
So when is the ideal time to kiss a girl?
First, you never want to just go in for the kiss without any prior physical escalation. That would be weird and a little awkward, especially if she were to turn you down.
The principle here is that nothing should feel unnatural. Just as she gets used to one level of intimacy and gives you her implied consent, you go a little further.
For me, that natural physical escalation starts when you first meet her and continues into the first date.
If I’ve met a girl while I was out and she subsequently contacted me or I contacted her, I will set up the first date like this:
“sunday. 6pm. pegu club. a quick drink to see if we get along. i’m bringing a hurricane of charm. will your levees hold up?”
Note the “quick drink” part.
It establishes a healthy skepticism that makes me seem more valuable, and it’s important if I want to cut the date short.
On that first date, I continue escalating.
Here is what I consider a natural physical escalation.
Initially, there is light touching, but it’s not very sexual. It’s what I call touching as punctuation. You’re using touch almost as a way of ending some of your sentences.
“You know what I mean?” (Touch on the arm.)
My boxing coach does this with both men and women and it’s very effective for building a physical comfort that is not sexual.
Then, there is sex talk. This is where you get her talking about things that are not appropriate conversation for two strangers: dating, cheating, sex.
I’ve written extensively about sex talk on this site, and Eric posted a challenge on this subject, so there’s plenty of material here for the curious.
Then there is more intimate body contact such as hugging, leaning on her, leaving your hand on her leg or around her lower back as you talk to her.
I do all of those, but the hug is my favorite.
I like to “reward” girls for making a conversation fun. When they say something that is really cool, I spread out my arms and say “Come here, you!” (Big hug.)
This gets girls used to body contact.
As I’m escalating, I’m also doing something else emotionally. I’m qualifying her.
I ask about movies she’s never seen, books she’s never read, and places she’s never been. I roll my eyes when she tells me about her lack of experience.
This process – physical interest combined with skepticism – creates an emotional dissonance that drives women crazy.
As they get physically aroused, they expect to find an emotional certainty. This is what they get with other men, but not with me.
Finally, it’s time for the kiss.
As things get more intimate, you can get really close to her face.
The difference between being really close to her face and a kiss is usually just a tilt of your head and an almost imperceptible extension of your neck.
If she’s ready to kiss you, she will do the same.
But why give her what she expects?
I tilt my head just as if I were about to go in, and, when she reciprocates, I lean slowly back away from her, denying her the kiss she is expecting.
The reactions I get are precious.
I’ve had women hiss, “You bastard!”
To this, I respond “You’re going to have to work a little harder for that kiss, girlfriend.”
Infrequently, I sense that I’m pushing her too far, that she doesn’t like having her head fucked with as much as I’m fucking with her. It’s a risk I’m willing to take.
Like most veterans of the game, I have a good sense of whether my game is achieving the desired effect.
However, if I see she’s getting pissed instead of amused (and a little frustrated), I say, “You know I’m just fucking with you, right?” Then I give her a hug.
So when do I actually kiss her?
Sometimes, we do kiss on that first date, and sometimes, I try to take it further. But most of the time, I prefer to wait until we’re at my place to actually kiss her.
Rather than trying to get her back to my place right away, I escalate as above but cut the date short.
“Well, this has been fun, but I have to scoot.”
Women are surprised, but I’ve achieved objectives that are important pre-requisites to a second date that will start at my place.
(1) I’ve qualified the shit out of her.
(2) I’ve found a reason to ask her back to my place at some future time – books, movies, etc.
(3) I got her hot but I didn’t give her the emotional certainty that she has my full interest. She knows she has to keep working for it.
(4) The last thing on her mind is whether I am a sex-starved maniac. If anything, she has some doubts about whether I am sufficiently attracted to her.
(5) Unlike other men, who typically want as much time with her as they can get, I cut the date short, leaving her wanting more.
(6) I have given her no relief from her anxiety by talking about future plans or asking her out on another date.
All of the above combine to make it possible for me to ask her out on a second date that begins at my place.
I do this as follows.
After the first date, I wait a few days to see if she contacts me. After a good first date, many girls will email to thank me. Whether she contacts me or not, this is what I text to her:
“wed 9pm. my place. midnight cowboy and the best pizza in manhattan. your film education begins :-)”
Midnight Cowboy is one of the movies we talked about on our first date, the classic that she admitted she had never seen. Meaning, my invitation is not something out of the blue. We talked about how she has to see this movie.
As well, after two or three days of waiting to hear from me, this message is a welcome relief and very hard for her to turn down.
It’s been said that the seduction process is about seven hours long from hello to the bedroom. But by playing it this way – by doing exactly what is least expected – I have found that intimacy – both physical and emotional – comes much, much quicker.
My approach is about 15 minutes long. My first date is about an hour long. And my second date begins at my place.
That’s all it takes.
Posted in First Dates, Sex and Escalation | 
22 Comments »
Cool article Lee:
“I tilt my head just as if I were about to go in, and, when she reciprocates, I lean slowly back away from her, denying her the kiss she is expecting.”
Thats interesting, I’ve never heard of this before, I’ll have to try it!
Wow … I was just asking my friends what they thought a good second date was, because I was having a hard time finding a successful structure. I’ve been doing some things incorrectly. Thanks for answering all my questions and then some.
When you cut the first date short and she asks why you are leaving, do you make up a reason, banter it off like saying you need your beauty sleep, or something else entirely?
@mario Before the date, I warn her that the date will be short – “a quick drink to see if we get along”. I end the date with “Well, this has been fun but I have to scoot.” If she asks me whether I have something planned, I say “Yeah, I’m meeting some friends.” Sometimes, she’ll ask if she’ll see me again, for which I have a great little routine that I’ve previously posted somewhere on this site:
“That depends. I’m going to go home and take out a yellow pad. I’m going to draw a line down the middle, write all the good things about you on the right side, and all the bad things about you on the left side. And if the good outnumber the bad, yeah, sure, we can hang again. But you should do the same.”
I smile throughout so she gets that I’m fucking with her, but the effect is still there. Uncertainty. It works in your favor.
–Lee
Lee- Great post! Although I have to say… for someone whose game isn’t as tight as yours, your technique is very hard. I’m wondering what you’d recommend for someone who can’t see the attraction building in the woman during the date.
I have been getting stuck lately between first and second dates sometimes, and it’s rather frustrating. The way you describe your interaction building up in sexual intensity – that never seems to happen to me on the first date. We have great conversation, but (from my perspective), even though we talk about different and deeper topics, I don’t see her signals of really falling for me more and more, and there’s never a moment when it’s clear that she’s ready to be kissed, so I don’t have that moment when I can pull away.
Instead, at some point I just have to put it out there: lean in, stick my lips out and pucker, and hope she responds positively. Usually as we’re wrapping up at venue 1, or as we’re moving from venue 1 to venue 2. I always feel like i’m taking it from 0 to 60 at that moment, but probably I’m just missing signals earlier on from her? I almost never get turned down. Often it escalates from there, but not always – sometimes I just stick to kissing them from time to time on the rest of the date. When I have gotten turned down, the woman usually apologizes and I just shrug my shoulders and say “don’t worry about it”. They usually kiss later on. If not, at least I didn’t lose her for not making a move.
But what does happen, maybe 25% of the time, even if the woman kisses me back, and seems to *really* enjoy it several times during the date, she declines a second date – and it can be quite frustrating. Makes me wonder why she kissed me if she didn’t want to. I’d love to ask them the question, but of course can’t. Anybody out there with similar experience who understands what might be going through their head?
@D-lite First, it doesn’t seem like you’re escalating at all, just going for the kiss. What you should be doing is a lot of touching, first non-sexual, then increasingly sexual. You should be leaning on her, hugging her, and generally getting her used to body contact. I suspect that what’s happening is this: when you go for the kiss after establishing really good rapport, they are a little embarrassed to turn you down, so they go along with it. This is what sales people sometimes call yes momentum. To me, it sounds like you’re getting rapport, but not attraction. They don’t actually want you to kiss them. Most of the time, when men are not taking physical risks, they are also not taking psychological risks. Do you neg and qualify them? Do you talk about dating, cheating, and sex? Or do you talk about safe topics – topics that make her feel like you want her and she deserves it? Qualification, negative game, inappropriate conversation, and physical escalation build attraction because they mimic the behavior of the most desirable men. These men are not bound by social convention, they are physically aggressive, and they always remain a little skeptical that the women they encounter are good enough for them. What you are doing by establishing rapport while deferring physical escalation is exactly the opposite of what you want to do. –Lee
Lee – first my way seems to work for me most of the time – it’s just those times when I kiss but don’t get a 2nd date, I wonder what I could have done differently/better. Your way also seems more fun so I wish I could do it that way, at least sometimes.
I think what I’m doing now works pretty well, but I definitely wouldn’t mind the first date being more straightforward flirty – I feel like it’s the one part of game I have yet to get a handle on. I guess it’s always a work in progress. In any case, thanks for your comments – I have a better sense of what it is I want to try to do.
@D-lite You’re getting the kiss, and if that were your only objective, I’d say you’re doing just fine. I’m suggesting that the reason you don’t get the second date is that getting the kiss is not reflective of your overall success. A kiss is more akin to a number than it is to overall success in the date. When a man has a great conversation with a woman, but she’s not attracted to him, what happens when he goes for the number? The most likely outcome is that she will avoid the awkward moment by giving it to him, but she’ll do so with no intention of ever going on that date. I am suggesting that this is also the explanation for why you get kisses but no follow up date. You are not effectively pulling these women into the hot zone from the first moment. You ARE effectively establishing a connection with them, but that is not enough for a second date. You need to escalate from the first moment instead of making them feel like they’re the prize and suddenly leaping in for a kiss. Just an opinion, bro, but one based on a lot of similar conversations. –Lee
Thanks for the great article Lee!
How do you deal with when they don’t agree on the date due to a scheduling conflict?
@Atlas Glad you asked. There are two reasons I’m so specific about the date and time. First, telling them what’s going to happen is much more powerful than asking. Second – and this is more subtle – I want to know how interested she is. If I say Wednesday at 9 and she says she’s busy on Wednesday at 9 but doesn’t suggest an alternative, guess what? It’s goodbye to this girl because she is not motivated enough to make the date exciting for me. If a girl likes me, she’s going to suggest an alternative. “Oooh sorry can’t make it wednesday, but I’m around all of next week.” That’s the minimum I will accept before asking again. “deep breaths sugah all is well. :-) we’ll do it next week. i have nothing going on next tuesday”. My problem is not finding a date. My problem is filtering out all of the dates that are not going to be fun for me. –Lee
Hi Lee,
I appreciate the comments. My way is working well for me – I usually do get that second date or don’t even need it :-) I think most of the time I am building attraction without touching or sex talk. In some ways, I think it adds mystery (she’s gotta be wondering if I’m into her), and I do stay aware of how we’re looking at each other, body positioning, etc. I do look for some signals before going for it…
But it’s those times where the girl seems to really enjoy the date and the kiss but still disappears – I guess that’s where the “yes momentum” happens. And makes me question whether I was reading her signals right.
So I would like to try things your way – I guess it seems like it’s the more natural way that things should progress, but here’s my question (from past experience long ago…) What do you do if you start escalating things (either touching or sex-talk) and she doesn’t react positively? I’ve touched women subtly (on the arm, squeeze the knee kind of stuff) and tried to turn the conversation sexual, but don’t get the kind of reaction I want. (that she starts touching back or gets really excited about the sex talk?) Am I expecting the wrong kind of reaction?
So, in the situations where it’s not going so smoothly – she doesn’t seem to be getting into you, what do you do? My experience is that even if she didn’t react, she could still be into you, but if she’s not reacting, you don’t know if she’s into you so it’s hard to continue to escalate. Just curious how you recommend handling this, because I’m pretty sure when I first start trying to do this, I’m going to have a couple of these experiences.
@D-lite Here’s the principle of pickup that I live by. Except for that very first moment when I walk up and start talking to her, I don’t give a girl any more than she gives me. So if I’m touching her and she’s not touching me back, I start pulling away until she tries harder. I will leave a date if I’m not getting what I want, and I will not go on dates unless the girl seems to be just as enthusiastic about it as I am. I give girls plenty of chances to say no. I would much rather have a no than go on some lame ass date. A no means nothing to me, but a bad date changes my mindset in the next ten interactions. So by the time we’re on that date, I’ve been getting a lot of small yes-es, and it seems very natural for both of us to keep going. –Lee
@D-Lite Dude, your mind is messing with you, telling you not to do the things that you are uncomfortable doing. You are successful despite your technique, not because of it. The only thing women think when you don’t pull them into the hot zone is that you are a wuss. If you want to create doubt that you’re interested – something I’m really good at doing – create that doubt by qualifying them, negging them, teasing them, and not showing them any more interest than they show you. There isn’t a single top PUA who doesn’t know how to quickly pull women out of that comfort zone and none of them advise students to hold off on sex talk and physical contact. I’m serious. –Lee
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In my view, success with women is based on a pure aggressive attitude. That’s what clears you mind from clutter and makes it sharp. It’s what enables you living, acting and reacting in the presence, to be strongly focused. And it gives you all the power required to violate social rules and cut through resistance.
I am aware that aggression has mostly negative connotations in our society. But that’s not what I mean; it’s the kind of combativeness which makes top athletes win – and women faint, if you will. Raw masculine power.
@Lee – I’m definitely going to give it a try. Thanks for the advice.
hmm.. i don’t know if this is true all the time.. i recently had a different experience.
our first two dates really didn’t have much physical contact at all.. maybe some “punctuation by touching” but that’s it. i know she was into me, because she would text me the next day.
that week she called me and invited me over for dinner. again it was kinda awkward, but as i was sitting next to her on the couch i looked at the facts: she invited me to her place.. obviously she wants me to make a move.
so i “jumped the gap”.. it felt unnatural as i moved in but as soon as i kissed her, she “clicked on”. after that she was all over me, and all the other physical stuff came naturally.
turns out we’re both kinda shy people, but we both liked each other. your mileage may vary, but in this scenario everything was in the reverse order you described.
@Paul
Sure, I’ve heard of stories like this one. Of course it happens, but this isn’t pickup – it’s not a strategy for success with women. It’s the story of success with one particular woman. If one woman is what you’re looking for and this happens to be the one, that’s all you need. But now suppose that for whatever reason things don’t work out and you’re back out there. What strategy should you follow to maximize your chancxes with the next one? Exactly the strategy that I describe above. You should be physically aggressive, you should display confidence, etc., etc. By the way, just because you were shy and she still found you attractive does not mean that if you were not shy she wouldn’t find you attractive. And there’s also the relationship to consider. When a man does not establish a good power dynamic in the beginning of the relationship, it often effects how the relationship develops. Many women welcome equal status or even the role of the pursuer early in a relationship thinking that they like the feelingof control. Later in the relationship, when they feel perfectly safe that they have their man, doubt that he is strong enough for them begins to creep in. It’s often a relationship ender. I am not saying this happens every time. In the world of human emotions, there are infinite possible outcomes. –Lee
@ Lee
I hope you’ll contribute another article soon. Your stuff about setting up a mindset that makes her work for your attention is something I haven’t seen and has been very helpful. Ever since I’ve been inviting girls out at a certain place date and time I’ve gotten better results and more information as to whether the girl is into me than suggesting we “should go out sometime”, going on a shitty *sometimes expensive* and realizing she wasn’t that excited to go out in the first place.
I’ve read some PUAs who encourage putting women on the backburning and contacting her later if she doesn’t work out the way you want but your way definitely let’s me walk away from situations with my dignity and head held high *and wallet full*.
Thanks
@Alex_B
Glad to hear you find this stuff useful. I like your posts, too. Your head is in the right place.
–Lee
thanks for the aritcle, its a great insight in how to know its the right time to go in for the kiss but i have run into a bit of a sticky issue here and i could use some help if thats ok, for example this girl who i liked and i could tell she liked me too but i moved too slow(but i did kiss her on the mouth at one point) and she started geting with a bisexual women. I can still see it in some of her body language that she likes me, the only problem is i have not been taking much notice of her and dissed her at one point, can i still get her? and a great article thanks :)
6 of 7 first dates ended in the sack for me lately.
Escalate to kissing and invite home. No? Pretend it doesn’t matter, and leave the subject. But stop kino for awhile.
Be funny and great for a few minutes. She will miss the kino, and start touching you. Wait a bit more (she deserves to wait), and start kino. Escalate to kissing again, but this time be more passionate.
“uh..I think people are starting to look.” *look around room and then at her – small grin – then cheeky grin*
pull away, and stop kino.
That’s what I did, and it worked. The one that didn’t work hadn’t been kissed for 3 years. We did make out a lot though.
Love this site btw. So well written!
I’m all for game, but if your goal is to make women insecure just so you can fuck them, that shows your insecurities. I don’t think there is anything wrong with fucking women, but a man with real game in my opinion shouldn’t have to make women feel insecure to fuck them.