Get Her to Stop Being the Nice Girl

by Eric Disco
Apr 6

Here are two different ways you could approach a woman directly:

One -

“I had to come tell you that you are unbelievably cute!”

Two

“I had to come tell you that you are fucking delicious!”

It would seem that being positivewould yield better results.

But the reason the second often works better is counter-intuitive.

Here’s why.

I walk out the front door of the coffeeshop with my client. As we walk down the sidewalk, we discuss our game plan for the day.

Then, walking by, I notice an attractive woman and a guy talking. It looks like they just met.

But there appears to be something very off with the guy, as if he has some type of mental disability.

She has a patronizing smile on her face indicating she’s just being nice. You can tell she doesn’t want to be there.

Yet she is walking with him and talking with him.

Whenever I see this, I wonder, is that me? Do women only talk to me because they’re being nice?

We talk a lot about the nice guy, how it is disingenuous and how it is a turn off to women.

But we don’t talk as much about the nice girl. It’s a different phenomenon, but it can affect your interactions just as much.

No doubt, there are women out there who will continue to talk to you simply out of kindness rather than a true desire to speak with you. Ouch.

It’s not the worst thing in the world. We all operate with a certain level of deference and respect to our fellow human beings.

If a person asks me for directions, I am usually nice to them. I give them directions. I’ll even stop and map out an address on my phone if I don’t know where it is.

And I have been led this way into conversations with strangers whom I’m not attracted to, at least not sexually.

When guys first start approaching, this is not a bad way to go. If you can’t even get into a conversation with any stranger, getting into a conversation with someone whom your attracted to can be like taking two steps at once, particularly if you have a lot of social anxiety.

The problem comes in when we stay in this zone. It’s very easy to get comfortable relying on the niceness of women. We become very careful not to do anything that would turn them off to us.

So women remain in conversation with us out of niceness. This is a problem.

Let’s take look again at these two approaches, both of which can be effective.

One: “I had to come tell you that you are unbelievably cute!”

Two: “I had to come tell you that you are fucking delicious!”

The first is more positive. If someone came up to you and said that you were cute, there is little in that statement that would offend you.

You would actually have to be a bit of an asshole if someone–anyone–told you that you were cute and you reacted negatively to them.

The second leaves open the possibility of rejection.

You said ‘fucking.’ It’s a bit inappropriate to swear like that when you first speak to someone.

You also called her ‘delicious,’ which is a bit objectifying.

If she said ‘fuck off,’ to you, no one would blame her.

And that’s exactly why it works.

Most women, just like most men, are nice. While attractive women have gotten good at rejecting guys–and sometimes they’re harsh–they consider themselves nice people.

If a person with severe mental disability comes up to a woman and tells her she is attractive, she will feel bad rejecting him.

She’ll try to be nice to him and let him down easy.

When any guy walks up to a woman and says he likes her, she doesn’t want to be mean. So she may stay and talk to him, even if she’s not attracted to him.

She may even give him a phone number that’s fake or a real phone number and not return his call. Just to be nice.

She’ll walk away thinking to herself, okay, I was nice to him. I’m a good person.

But if the guy does something that makes him just a bit of an asshole, all bets are off.

She can be mean to him. She can tell him to fuck off.

She doesn’t have to be nice to him.

That’s why if she stays and talks to you after you’ve been a bit of an asshole, she feels like she’s there talking to you because she wants to talk to you, not because she’s being nice.

She may have stayed and talked to you in either case, but now she feels differently.

You’re no longer a charity case. You’re somebody able to handle harsh rejection.

In other words, she sees you as an emotionally resilient, experienced man of the world.

That’s why when you give women an obvious reason to reject you, it may lead to more and harsher rejection, but it also allows them to be their true selves around you instead of the nice girl.

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posted in Attraction

COMMENTS
52 responses
Stephen says:

Great article

Is this why you should reframe from “small talk”? When I’ve interacted with girls I have always tried to be different within my conversations.

Such as disagree with her, kino and be sexually subtle.

Steve

Eric Disco says:

Is this why you should reframe from “small talk”? When I’ve interacted with girls I have always tried to be different within my conversations.

I would not say you should refrain from small talk. I’ve talked before about how small talk can be useful. See When Small Talk is Big.

You’re not ALWAYS going to be an asshole and always fuck with her. But you want to fuck with her a little bit, enough so that she could tell you to fuck off if she wanted to.

It’s true you want to have something interesting to say. As Lee said yesterday, if you’re going to a job interview, you may as well present your best side.

However, you don’t want to fall into the trap of feeling like you EVERYTHING you say has to be super deep, exciting, or edgy. This can keep you from talking to people in the first place. You can end up putting too much pressure on yourself trying to come up with brilliant things to say. And when you get in front of that hot girl, anxiety makes it seem like whatever you have to say just isn’t good enough.

My suggestion would be, instead of trying to cut out the small talk, come up with things that you will say. If you’re using small talk as a crutch to be nice, then yes, maybe you need to cut it out. But make sure you aren’t making things too difficult for yourself.

Eric

Matt says:

That’s pretty fucking cool goddammit.

still not keen on this swearing thing that’s so popular in the community, to be honest. Sorry, but it comes across as crass and immature. Saying ‘fucking’ is not what’s getting the women…it’s the fact that you have the balls to actually SAY ‘fucking’. Which means that you should also have the balls to get the point across in a more mature way. If you’re 18 and in college, maybe. If you’re 26 and on a city street, avoid it.

Just my two cents, but I really think that swearing will drive away lots of women you may have a pretty good shot with with straight-up sexual confidence.

Not for me.

Tim P says:

@GoodyearBlimp: Man, I don’t know what kind of game you run, but I never get anywhere being “mature”. Then again, I have never been able to relate to the uptight girls who tell me I’m too “immature” and “too touchy-feely” either, so maybe you can get different girls than I can.

Whatever the case, I liked this post. Just today, I told a girl walking that she was so cute I just had to say hi. I got a nice smile from her and chatted a little, but she was resistant to stop for me, and when I walked with her, she ended up turning really quick at the end of the street. I said “at least I can get a hug!” and she smiled a little and walked away.

If I used the “fucking delicious” line, I could have avoided any niceties off the bat and pushed her into a more solid YES or NO. I definitely like this line.

I guess my problem with it is that I don’t really buy the idea that you have to get a YES or NO like that. What’s wrong with a 3 minute time investment? People have this notion that either you say ‘WOW you’re fucking hot’ or on a 5-hour road-to-nowhere…that’s ridiculous.

It just seems like a line like that would put off far more girls than it attracts. And the LINE itself doesn’t do the attracting…it’s the balls of the guy saying the line.

Mark02 says:

Wow. Amazing. I will have to bookmark and study this.

My NUMBER ONE problem is people not being “real” with me, but being too polite…

Mario says:

Eric, I understand very well the concept. My greatest concern is what if after you say something like that, they throw you out of the venue or something more serious happens like she even accuses you of sexual harassment… I do not know, see, there is a time when a woman I liked was introducing herself and I happened to whistle nicely and all the people looked at me wrong…

San says:

Eric, your blogs are FANTASTIC. Such a refreshing change from the horrible misogyny and” STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING PUSSY MAN” type postings that clutter http://www.stylelife.com.

However, I have one thing that keeps cropping up in your blogs that I have a question on. A lot of your blogs on day-game/park-game/subway game etc talk about being direct with a girl and telling her she is “cute” or “sexy”.

But one of the big things I have learned since I first started reading about pickup/practising pickup is that one of the biggest mistakes that men generally make (and I felt this applied to me as much as anyone) was telegraphing interest too early and too blatantly, rather than making women work for your approval/attention.

Walking up to a girl and telling her right off the bat that she is cute seems to contradict this somewhat. Can you please explain this paradox so I understand it better?

Thanks,

Sam.

Stephen says:

@Mario

It is how you say it. If you say something with a playful gesture (say, smiling) then you can pull it off. If you say it with some gravitas then it becomes creepy. You can say nice things, sexual things, tease whatever but if you say them all jittery or serious then it is creepy.

“I happened to whistle and all the people looked at me wrong”

they looked at you because you had fucking balls to be counter intuitive within the interaction. Besides, so what if others look at you funny, she didn’t did she?

Cameron says:

GoodYearBlimp, you don’t have to swear if you dont want to, Eric was just using an example.

If you want something thats really direct and powerful go with Corry Skyy’s “Wow” opener, its awesome.

Mario:

Notice that your whole post is about avoiding failure.

Yes, people might get creeped out if you go direct, but thats the whole point.

Whats really fucked up is that we live in a society where its not ok for men to express their sexual desires, I mean:

If we dont have the balls to tell women we are attracted to that we want to have sex with them what kind of men are we anyway?

San says:

But does Cory Sky’s “wow opener” not come under the umbrella of “telegraphing interest” as I have discussed in my post above?Anyone able to elaborate on this?

It is has confused somewhat as I feel that it goes against an awful lot of what I have learned since getting into pickup about what to do, and more specifically what NOT to do (i.e. slobber over attractive women).

Lee says:

There is a big difference between sexual interest and emotional interest. “You look fucking delicious” is great specifically because it cannot be mistaken for emotional interest. When a man feels emotions for a woman with whom he’s spent very little time, he can be sure that those feelings aren’t real and are coming from a position of need. He desperately wants a wife, a mother for his children, a life companion, and, at some level, he has already decided that this girl is that person. There is nothing wrong with saying “You’re the cutest girl I’ve seen all day” as long as you say it in a way that betrays no emotional interest. Women are smart. When they meet men who show emotional interest too early, they correctly assume that these men are desperate. So, you’re safe using “fucking delicious”, but if you use “cutest girl i’ve seen all day”, you should be all the more careful that your body language, your swagger, your style, your voice tone, and all of the other elements of your game do not convey a need.

San says:

Thank you Lee. That is a very helpful summation.

San–

also, it’s a bit like delivering a compliment.

You can deliver a compliment in a nice way, prompting her to say ‘Awwww…that’s the nicest thing anyone’s said to me’.

Or you can pay a compliment that makes her say ‘holy shit…thanks!!’

the first one’s a bit needy…the second one is really cool. The second one translates well to a phone number/date/etc.

Tim P says:

This theory is kinda confusing… what does it mean to show emotional interest?

Oh, and I told a girl she looked “FUCKING cute” yesterday and it felt like an atom bomb went off. it really caught her attention and she was engaged in the conversation with me, but after we exchanged names and I held her hand, she told me she had a boyfriend. I talked to other community guys in Union Sq and they told me similar: everytime we use direct openers, we seem to get the boyfriend excuse a lot. I think it closes a lot of doors, but I haven’t had enough infield experience to know 100%.

Cameron says:

Tim,

basically what Lee is saying is that you want to convey sexual interest, but your not attacked to the outcome. You dont want to marry her or anything silly like that, because you just met her. You recognise that she is a beautiful girl and you want her (but you dont need her)

does that help?

Lee says:

Right on, Cameron.

Tim P says:

I still don’t know what emotional interest means. It sounds like a buzzword that people throw around.

Really, I don’t see how “you’re the cutest girl” shows emotional feeling and desperation. I don’t see how a “wow” opener can be considered slobbering over women either. All I know is the “you’re fucking delicious” line is daring, ballsy, and more sexual than the others. It cuts through all polite BS and makes the girl go down that route into a sexual, risky conversation.

But to me, that doesn’t mean the other lines won’t work or that they are somehow needy. I think they are lower risk and leave the girl too much lee-way to be nice.

Great article! I love the word “delicious” used in this context because you can bet she hasn’t heard that one before. It’s creative, bold and fun.

Will probably go over a little better then the classic “Not to be Mr. Johnny Greaseball, but I’d really love to stick my big toe in your vagina.” ;)

Lee says:

@Tim_P Whatever explanation works for you, dude :-) I think we both agree that “You look fucking delicious” is better than “You’re the cutest girl I’ve seen all day”. Peace.

Cameron says:

Tim P,

its pretty fucking simple. Emotional interest is being interested in her in an emotional way, like wanting to fall in love with her and have her babies.

As opposed to a healthy desire and want to have sex with her.

And actually, if you read Erics article carefully, he never said that telling a girl shes cute shows desperation , cause it dont, its just not as masculine as telling her she looks fucking delicious.

Lee says:

@Cameron Agreed completely. The safer we play it, the more likely that chicks will interpret our interest as emotional because men who are emotionally interested in women too early usually play it safe. Taking chances by saying things like “You look fucking delicious” immediately removes you from the pool of the potentially needy. There are other ways to take chances, though. So if I look a girl up and down slowly, smile, lick my lips, shake my head slightly, and say “You’re the cutest girl I’ve seen all day”, I’m probably going to achieve an effect that is pretty close to telling her that she looks fucking delicious.

José says:

You freaking rock, and I love your blog.

KL says:

Idk whatever happened to “beautiful.” It’s like it’s either all or nothing here. Either she’s a virginal porcelain doll, or a lusty temptress in leather (the images notwithstanding). Know what I mean?

The fact is that the phrase “fucking delicious” WILL turn away many otherwise high-quality women simply on principle. Why shoot yourself in the foot like that?

It’s in the same category as “You have a great ass” or “Your tits are amazing.” Sure it’s ballsy, but it’s almost too ballsy as in “Hey! Look at me! I’m so ballsy I can say anything, muthafuckah!”

You’d have to deliver it just right to work. But then, if it all comes down to delivery, might as well just work on that delivery right? Regardless of words.

I can see this as a great exercise for a guy who is not comfortable walking up to women–just to push his boundaries and get used to rejection.

But it doesn’t seem to me that the true ladies’ men of the world would talk like that, not in the first moment. They would be more mysterious and cat-and-mouse about it. They would let their body language and eyes do the talking. They would understand that words are often unnecessary impediments to the real silent, natural sexual dialogue between man and woman, so they would take out as many words as possible.

That speaks to that sexual interest, as opposed to emotional interest.

That’s my two cents anyway.

Lee says:

It is possible to say “cute” or “beautiful”. Paradoxically, that is when you really have to own it – when you have to use your body language to convey that sense of risk taking and sexual energy. For most men, that’s the hard part. The word beautiful is an obstacle because beautiful girls get told they are beautiful all the time, mostly by men who are trying hard to get on their good sides, men who don’t take chances. “Fucking delicious” is not my favorite opener, but what surprised me when I tried it is how infrequently I was told to fuck off. I really expected that it would happen in 90% of the sets. Instead, most women would giggle a bit and say “Thanks!” In terms of pure angry rejection, “fucking delicious” was not that far away from “cutest girl i’ve seen all day”.

KL—

yup—that’s where I’m coming from as well.

‘fucking delicious’…it suggests some lack of social awareness–I don’t care if some of the best people use it. If they’re doing well, it’s not BECAUSE they used the ‘fucking’ line—it’s actually IN SPITE OF it–because they demonstrated their value in other ways.

Unless you’re 20 or in a nightclub…it’s not going to do you any favors.

Lee says:

@GoodyearBlimp Just to be sure we’re on the same page. You do agree that men should take chances – for example, by talking about sex, or hugging women they’ve just met, behavior that most men do not engage in, and that most women would say is not appropriate behavior for two strangers just getting to know each other? In other words, it’s just this opener you don’t like, not the principle of stepping outside of the boundaries of polite society to make a stronger impression on women you’ve just met. Correct?

Lee–

absolutely. And even the line itself is probably congruent with some people’s personalities–in which case I have less of a problem with it. But the line is crude more than it is sexual, which is why I don’t like it and why it’s probably a turnoff to a lot of people. Not all, of course.

Lee says:

Fair enough. That makes sense. To each his own.

KL says:

Lee, I bet if you went around telling girls they had a great ass, you would get similar responses. That’s because you have mastered the charisma and masculine energy to the point where it almost doesn’t matter what comes out of your mouth, similar to what Blimp said.

I think a lot of girls would enjoy the attention from a hot guy for a moment, but that social conditioning would prevent them from taking him seriously going forward–i.e. giving numbers, responding to calls, going on date. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

And for intermediate guys I don’t think it would be as successful. They would depend on the line to make up for the energy/ confidence they lack.

I agree with what you said on “beautiful,” they have heard it before. But that goes back to the issue of delivery/ charisma/ presence, to break through the typical.

Some of the best guys use some of the blandest nonsexual words, because everything is being communicated nonverbally.

Lee says:

@KL I grant you that it is hard to isolate the effect of that opener because only guys who are already very good tend to use it. (I am a scientist, so I have to admit when I don’t have clean data on my side.) However, you do agree that these guys who effectively sub-communicate everything with body language do eventually get pretty sexual – verbally and otherwise – and start talking about subjects that women would say ahead of time are not appropriate conversation for two strangers who’ve just met, right? Meaning, hugging, talking about sex, asking girls you’ve just met if they’ve kissed other girls, etc – you do see that these are effective means of breaking down the romantic barriers that normally exist between two strangers, right? Or do you also attribute the success of men who use these techniques to body language and other behavior completely unrelated to what they say? I’ll tell you something I say all the time. I ask women where their family lives, then I ask if they are emotionally close. Then I say: “You know, I just read an article that said that women who are not close to one or both living parents are far less likely to orgasm from normal penetrative sex.” At this point they laugh and usually try to explain that they are close to their parents. :-) Do you see this technique is a good one, an effective means of breaking taboo? Or do you think that men who use this type of story are also successful despite what they say?

@Lee–one more thing, and jumping off your reply to KL–

isn’t a huge part—actually probably the most important part–of being ‘ good with women’ the ability to do two things:

a. read their signals–I mean the deep ones that even they may not be aware of and
b. not inhibit yourself, so that you allow yourself to act accordingly?

essentially…this is what’s involved in the stock phrase of ‘it just happens’. If you’re there–even within a few seconds–the conversation can get extremely ‘inappropriate’ and it’s still fine. Barriers are broken once the subtext of flirtation is established. I’ve certainly talked about threesomes, etc. within a minute or so of meeting a girl—but it felt natural and not forced.

At the immediate opening line, though, there’s (usually) not anything to go on so you’re really going on one-sided escalation and hoping she buys into it rather than mutual escalation. That’s something that seems to be missing from most of the forums/community.

Lee says:

You are right. At the beginning, being that sexual is a risk. When I experimented with this opener, I was surprised that it didn’t result in the number of brutal rejections that I expected. Nevertheless, it’s certainly more of a risk that a lukewarm compliment. However, the riskiness of it is precisely why the successes tend to be more spectacular. I remember when Eric encouraged me to try this opener. I don’t do direct game at all, so needless to say, I was terrified. The first time I did it, I kinda mumbled my way through and the girl ignored me and walked off. Eric was with me so I’m sure he remembers the second time I used this opener. I saw two girls walking through a crowd in Soho. One of them was wearing something pretty funky and she really did look fucking delicious. I stood right in their way and delivered the line perfectly. “Sister, you look fucking delicious!” “Thanks!” She said “You look fucking delicious, too.” I was so shocked that instead of taking advantage of the invitation, I kept on walking. No woman has said something like that to me before or since.

KL says:

Lee,

My belief is that words only have the power we give them. You give Shakespeare to one of the world’s best actors and he’ll give a stirring performance, but you give it to a middle school literature student with a C average, and… you get it. Same script, totally different outcomes.

In the same way, give a middle-schooler’s one page script to both of them, and again the professional actor will give you a great performance.

I certainly agree that it’s important to push the envelope and take risks with women. But that is demonstrated through the way you say the words, not the words themselves. The vast majority of communication is nonverbal.

The routine you describe is a great example of this: you’re demonstrating a number of great qualities, comfort talking about sex, ballsiness, willingness to break taboo, challenging her a little, sexual intelligence, etc.

But a guy who does not genuinely have these qualities will not see success using that routine, or very limited success. This is because since he doesn’t have these qualities–duh–he can’t demonstrate them.

An analogy: If a woman is very unattractive, it doesn’t matter how much makeup she puts on, she will never be able to compete with a genuinely pretty woman.

I think we’re more or less on the same page.

Cameron says:

KL, your really twisting everything Lee has said to fit your own conclusions. If you really study your posts, you see that they dont really make sense.

“The routine you describe is a great example of this: you’re demonstrating a number of great qualities, comfort talking about sex, ballsiness, willingness to break taboo, challenging her a little, sexual intelligence, etc.

But a guy who does not genuinely have these qualities will not see success using that routine, or very limited success. This is because since he doesn’t have these qualities–duh–he can’t demonstrate them.”

But Lee just told you a story when he “didnt have these qualities” (which is a story meaning “had never before mustered up the courage to uproach this way” and it DID WORK:

I remember when Eric encouraged me to try this opener. I don’t do direct game at all, so needless to say, I was terrified. The first time I did it, I kinda mumbled my way through and the girl ignored me and walked off. Eric was with me so I’m sure he remembers the second time I used this opener. I saw two girls walking through a crowd in Soho. One of them was wearing something pretty funky and she really did look fucking delicious. I stood right in their way and delivered the line perfectly. “Sister, you look fucking delicious!” “Thanks!” She said “You look fucking delicious, too.” I was so shocked that instead of taking advantage of the invitation, I kept on walking. No woman has said something like that to me before or since.

Lee says:

@KL I think what you are saying is this: If you’re a bad painter, more colors won’t help you. Can’t disagree with that one. It is also true that a good painter would never commit to always working with a limited palette. Maybe it’s not your thing to get sexual up front. Or maybe you’d like it to be your thing but you don’t think you’re ready to pull it off. No big deal. Those are both valid reasons for choosing an alternative course of action. You are right that there are other ways to achieve the same result. Speaking just for myself, I know that there were times in my evolution in the community when I argued for a course of action that made it easier for me to keep doing what I was already comfortable doing. You should look deep within yourself. Make sure that’s not your motivation. And if it’s not, do what feels comfortable and congruent. As I said before, this opener is not really my thing either, but it was important to me to figure out whether I could make it work because that’s the way I convinced myself that I wasn’t taking the easy way out.

KL says:

Cameron–in your quote of me I was referring to Lee’s routine about being close to parents and orgasms. That’s what demonstrates comfort talking about sex, etc. But a guy who isn’t genuinely comfortable with that topic will probably not be able to pull it off.

Lee:

Sure, I’ll admit I have had trouble really putting that sexual interest out there. That’s something I need to work on, among other things, I’m happy to admit that. Nevertheless, I’ve improved a LOT from where I was years ago, from shaking and getting sweaty palms just at the prospect of asking for a girl’s number. So I am no stranger to taking risks and pushing myself.

But even beyond that, I still think the best guys would start out low-key, and get sexual as the conversation progressed, as a general rule. Even getting sexual within the span of 5 minutes, they would still start from a more “female user-friendly” place, if you get me.

Separate but related, a very strong, sexual or physical opener tends to do very well in club game or a similar boisterous environment. Maybe that helps explain your success in Soho–you mentioned it was a crowd, possibly a situation with a lot of action around.

Lee says:

@KL The “fucking delicious” opener was pioneered by Glenn, definitely one of the best guys in the business. And Brad P., also one of the top guys, has an opener that goes something like this: “You look familiar… Did we have sex last week?” The other end of the spectrum – Mystery – never goes direct and never compliments women until they show him interest, so a word like “beautiful” or even “cute” would never make its way into his opener. So, who does use the “cutest girl” opener? It’s most frequently used as an exercise in workshops. It’s so simple that it allows guys to concentrate on body language, voice tone, facial expression, and other obstacles. Of the guys who do use it in their everyday approaches, most follow up with something pretty daring, something like: “Well? Aren’t you going to tell me I look cute?” In other words, maybe it’s not sexual, but it’s still pretty risky. So maybe the sex thing is not your thing, but you should still work towards the objective of taking big chances. You’ll be surprised what you can get away with. There is only one thing that women can’t forgive, and that’s being timid. Everything else is a go.

KL says:

Lee, I never said I was against getting sexual. But there’s a right time and a wrong time for everything. Eric said something once very insightful–doing the wrong thing at the right time, or something like that. And that does take a healthy appetite for risk.

Yup, there are exceptions to every rule. Glenn plays a VERY high risk/ high reward game, which means by definition he fails many times, but the women he succeeds with are ready to go.

A different, more consistent approach is still getting sexual, still taking smart risks, but easier for her to swallow at the outset.

On the other side of the coin, you need to ask yourself if your position isn’t coming from a place of wanting a “quick fix” to deliver all the goods.

Getting really good with women is a journey, and it takes improving one’s personality and mindset before anything else. Lines are secondary to the spirit with which they are delivered. That’s why some guys will succeed no matter what they say, and other guys will fail no matter what they say.

Cameron says:

KL, it amazes me that you presume to preach the right time to be sexual without having tried the alternative.

Do you see the implied arrogance of your position?

KL says:

There’s nothing arrogant about having an opinion. I’ve tried lots of stuff, failed a lot, succeeded a lot. I’ve done direct, indirect, gone sexual too soon, gone sexual too late, I’ve been shy, I’ve been outlandish, I’ve played the extravert’s game, I’ve played the introvert’s game, I’ve tried to be somebody else, and tried to be myself. I’m in this game as much as anybody else. There’s nothing arrogant about having an opinion, based on experience, but there is something arrogant about assuming someone else’s experiences.

@KL–

so do you think that, through these different personas, you’ve found yourself in the dating game?

Just curious–I’m at the point of rediscovering what ‘being myself’ ACTUALLY meant this whole time…

Meanwhile…my lunch was fucking delicious…

KL says:

Haha, I hear you Blimp. I’ve recently realized that all of the women I have succeeded with by any measure–there were some common elements at the first encounter. I wasn’t running any routines, and I was very relaxed within my natural frame. And each of these girls had pretty unique personalities.

Whenever I tried to be someone or something else, it never went anywhere with those girls. It was great for pushing my boundaries and frankly I wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without doing some acting because where I started was so backward and fucked up. But long term you’ll never get anywhere being something you’re not, and don’t ultimately want to be.

Now I know the kind of man I want to be–it’s just a matter of focusing on that and cultivating it. So I have a concrete direction.

Cameron says:

I was thinking about this discussion and I realised something.

We all totally fell into a conversation about the merits of this approach versus that approach and all that stuff.

And our whole conversation was based on some assumptions, that aren’t true.

For example getting a good response was assumed to be good, getting a bad response was assumed to be bad.

In other words, our whole conversation came from a place of outcome dependency or neediness.

I was also thinking about what KL said:

Glenn plays a VERY high risk/ high reward game, which means by definition he fails many times, but the women he succeeds with are ready to go.

So why aren’t we doing that? Why aren’t we focusing on what WE want in a woman, and what approaches will be more likely to attract that type of women?

@Cameron–

I see where you’re coming from, but there’s still a problem there.

Tailoring an approach according to what you think might work best for the girl is outcome dependent too…just in a different way. That STILL makes it about tactics and results, when it should be much more internal–really about how YOU feel when you’re interacting with the girl.

I’ve met some guys who think they’re great with women…they’ll dress, or act, or choose hobbies even–that are designed to attract a certain kind of girl. I think that’s a really bad idea…

Cameron says:

“I’ve met some guys who think they’re great with women…they’ll dress, or act, or choose hobbies even–that are designed to attract a certain kind of girl. I think that’s a really bad idea…”

Why? Whats wrong with that? I dress well because I want to attract confident, fashionable women. Would you recommend I dress like a bum?

Lee says:

@GoodYearBlimp Not to gang up on you, but Cameron has a point. How much of your ordinary life would you insist should remain unchanged when you are making a conscious effort to attract women? Should you dress exactly as you would when you go out with your pals? Let’s make the question even broader. When you go on an interview, do you wing it or do you bring a sharply polished resume? Wouldn’t it be more natural to just talk about your skills the way you do with your pals, with all the uncertainty and mixed feelings we all freely express? And do you ever say to yourself, hey, what are employers looking for? You may not be willing to do some things that they’re looking for, but there’s certainly some sub-set that appeals to you, right? Meaning, if you were a computer programmer, you might learn a popular programming language. Why is thinking about what women find attractive a bad thing? You shouldn’t make what women find attractive the only guiding principle in your life, but in the context of the above, neither should you completely ignore the preferences of the person — or, in this case, people — with whom you would consider spending the rest of your life.

@Lee/Cameron

Valid points. But I’m not suggesting making NO changes–I wouldn’t be here if that’s where i was coming from. Of course if things aren’t working then just coasting along as you always have been isn’t going to help–I agree with you there.

However, I”ve seen several cases where people try so hard to make specific alterations according to every girl they see walking along the street that they essentially lose sight of who they want to be as people–only in what they want to ‘get’ in terms of women.

Look at the number of people in the ‘pickup’ community who all have the same (often contrived) interests–follow the same pop-philosophers–take on the same martial art–use the same reference frames when discussing women—I’ve met several who don’t even act like human beings because they’re so afraid to project any ‘incorrect’ image when it comes to sexuality and a perceived ‘alphaness’. This allows them to approach thousands of women, maybe sleep with 20 of them and imagine that they’re good at it.

Ultimately I think the first goal has to be to really understand and release yourself. If you can do this, I think that you actually DO gravitate towards (and often attract) the kind of women that you want. Isn’t that where most true ‘naturals’ are coming from? Their presence is good, yeah…but rarely impeccable….to be honest, the naturals I’ve met come across as FAR more flawed (even dumpy!) than self-styled pick-up-artists or players or whatever. And ‘naturals’ are much less obsessed with tactics–the reason they’re successful is that they never had the “I don’t know what to do’ or the ‘I suck with women’ message instilled in them. So they just go. And do.

Just my take!

Cameron says:

You know, I think you’ve actually made a lot of great points GoodYearBlimp.

@Cameron–

thanks :)

I guess I started thinking about this even more because I’ve noticed a lot of people who are experimenting with this stuff who really seem like all around great guys, and others who really came across as unbalanced–and I wanted to explore where the differences were, and what made them (and me) tick.

There are a lot of buried psyches here in ‘pickupland’–and I think it’s really important to unlock them as much as possible, since that’s often the first (and most difficult) place to look in terms of finding where dating difficulties stem from.

Cameron says:

Yeh, I know that the more self-aware I become, the better with women (and life) I get.

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