What Confidence Looks Like to Women

by Eric Disco
Jul 19

jeanzapata.deviantart.com1Confident guys behave a certain way.

While all of them are different people, their confidence about who they are effects those around them.

People react differently to them.

I recently had a conversation with a very attractive 29-year-old friend of mine. She talked to me about attraction and her charismatic friend who’s great with women.

I have a friend who’s below average in the looks department.

But he walks into a bar like he’s the hottest guy in the place. And everyone buys that and is like “That’s the hottest guy in the whole bar!”

He’s got a huge red-haired Irish afro and is pasty and white and short and probably could drink less beer and work out more. I’m being honest. He would agree with me!

But he has no qualms about how he looks. He’s 100% confident about who he is.

He’s so confident about how he looks, it isn’t even something you think about. He’ll wear plaid suits into bars and still everyone wants to talk to him. He doesn’t care.

It’s how he carries himself. He’s not drop-dead model gorgeous but he carries himself in a way that reads as drop-dead model gorgeous.

He has amazing posture. It’s very look-at-me posture, like I’m not afraid of you looking at me.

At no point does he ever apologize with his body. He’s wide open. He puts his hands out in the air all the time. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him cross his arms in his entire life. He’s just incredibly confident with his body.

The way he interacts with people is incredible. He’s really good at picking on people in a way that makes them want to talk to him more.

And I think that’s the biggest thing that makes him hot. He’s not afraid. He doesn’t care.

One time, we were in this really bad neighborhood. He parked his car and bumped the car behind us and the car in front of us.

There were all these thugs on the corner. And they were like “You just hit my car.”

jeanzapata.deviantart.com3I was thinking, oh god, we’re going to get shot.

And he yells “That’s what bumpers are for!”

And they’re all like “Heh heh heh, that’s funny! You wanna hang out!”

I was like, what just happened? The way he said it wasn’t like ‘oops, my bad,’ it was like ‘No damage was done, whatever.’

We dated for a while. It was really cool. As much as he’s a big baller in the bar and can keep things light and fun, he isn’t afraid of having a serious conversation. A lot of guys are scared of their emotions.

If he felt a way about something, he would let you know, even if it were something that was upsetting to him. Things that someone would say ‘That’s not attractive,’ he didn’t worry about those things.

He could be incredibly sincere without trying to be sincere. The people who were his friends were like ‘That’s the guy to go to.’

And he’s great with women. He’s a real ladies man. All the girls love him. They’re all about it.

We were in an elevator and he started talking to this woman with a baby. At first she was nervous. But by the time we got to the ground floor she was holding the elevator to keep talking to him.

He just really enjoys talking to people. He just likes learning things about strangers. He’s actually interested in people, and because of that they’re like ‘cool!’ and flattered and talk to him.

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posted in Attraction

COMMENTS
62 responses
Rham says:

I have known a few guys like this but they rarely get laid or have sex with the women. The guy you have described is more of a “best friend” or “orbiter with a sense of humor.” Almost like a toy or a pet. They love to say they are open minded to these types of guys and then the next minute they are off with stud or Sugar Daddy.

The young lady says she dated him – what does dating mean in this context? She actually dated and slept with him or just went out to dinner and a few activities?

I have a really hard time seeing how a hot young lady would date a guy like that. Why would she? These young ladies again, can date any guy they want too so why him? I know you guys will say that women will only date guys that approach them. That is not completely true. Women like telling guys no, its like a hobby for them. I call it the “Sisterhood of the No.” They will wait until Prince Charming comes along and if he does not, they will find some derelict studly type to bang until he comes along. I see it often.

I just have a very hard time believing her story. This is more like a fairytale than true.

Tido says:

@ Raham
Sure women have their preferences, but a guy who has inner strength and is sociable is going to appeal to women. Hey and men, in a totally heterosexual way, :).

Rham says:

Tido,

He might appeal to them but will they have sex with them? Friendship is appealing. But is this true sexual attraction? Sorry nope.

Cameron says:

Hey Eric,

I totally dug this article, I thought it was fantastic. It’s fascinating to me how this guy can do really well with women without being a good looking guy.

I know often times in my life I’ve used my looks as an excuse for failing.

I hope you don’t mind me giving you some advice Eric.

I think your articles would even better if you stuck to the positive. Rather than saying

“But he has no qualms about how he looks.

At no point does he ever apologize with his body.”

I would just leave that stuff out and say the rest of the stuff!

I hope that helps. I’m very grateful for your advice.

KL says:

Eric, love this story.

Some people will never accept that looks aren’t everything. Men and women are just different. We’re attracted to different things and we prioritize different things. Women want a guy who does the best with what he has. That’s why some of the best guys with women are not the tallest, in the best shape, or with the perfect model face.

So many guys seem to think that women are just men with vaginas. Oh well, more chicks for the rest of us, I guess.

Rick says:

You must be a decent looking guy KL to make a statement like that. Looks are a BIG factor to get in the door. They may not keep you there but they will give you a good chance of getting in. Trust me I know. It is a big fallacy to say that looks do not matter. The only guys that say that are decent looking guys. Sorry but true.

Yes some of the guys that are not the tallest or in best shape do well with women. It is usually because these guys have money or something of value along those lines.

Tz says:

Looks definitely matter, but a goodlooking guy without confidence to initiate an interaction with a girl and escalate it is just not going to do that well. If he’s very goodlooking, he’ll probably do alright because he’ll probably “luck” into women that will do a lot of the work for him. But he’s still going to be dissatisfied because in the end he’s not doing the selecting of women he wants to be with, he’s merely winding up with what falls into his lap by happenstance.

On the other hand, I’ve known socially confident guys who are not attractive who do quite well with women. I had one friend who was a social butterfly and always seemed to have a cute girl. I thought it was because he was goodlooking, but I find out I was entirely wrong when one day a girl divulged to me that she liked him in spite of his ugliness. That made me realize, yeah he is unattractive physically. Buck teeth, kind of balding, not even in all that great of shape with a bit of a belly. He wasn’t tall either. But what he had going for him was social confidence. And he was fun to be with. Guys liked to be with him. Girls liked to be with him. He didn’t walk around thinking “My ugly looks means a girl will never like me, etc, etc…” As far as I could tell that thought never even crossed his mind. Instead, what he thought was, “She’s cute, I’m going to go talk to her and have some fun…” He made his own reality.

Rick says:

Tz,

What is his reality? Friends with these women or is he more than that? Being socially confident or getting along with people does not mean you are sexually attractive – BIG difference. What did she like? He is a fun guy to go to lunch with? Seriously…there is a fine here. Heck, I have tons of female friends. Do I date them? No. I have asked a number of them out but they look at me as a friend or just are not attracted to me. Have I tried? Hell yeah. Do they date good looking or money guys? Sure do. I was at a party this weekend and two female friends (both uber attractive) are dating taller dudes that are pretty good looking guys I guess. One had a motorcycle the other was some kind of investment banker. Incidently I asked both of these women out and both rejected me on grounds that I was not their type.

rico says:

which one is more important? to have good looks “objectively”, or to have the right mindset about your looks? and which one is harder to achieve?

I consider my looks as being below average. I have a big nose, a high hair line, and my hair is already thinning on the top of my head. Yes, I worked on my body language, and yes, I talk to women regularly in a very confident way, but they just don’t dig it. They’re still calling me “ugly”, they’re making excuses, and whatever I say, I always lose them after some minutes of talking…

I don’t know what to believe, I don’t know how to distinguish a “shit test” from a “real opinion”, and I can’t handle the discrepancy between a “frame” and “reality”. How can I get rid of my doubts, how can I believe in myself strongly enough to make some girl attracted to me?

Nonstop says:

Looks are very important. If a woman has a choice between two guys with the same level of Game, she will probably choose the better looking one. It’s a natural choice.

Focusing on if good looks matter is like caring how big your dick is, it only matters if you think it does… and if you have nothing else going for you.

Tz says:

Rick,

Sorry, I should’ve been more clear. I meant he was getting laid regularly by some very attractive women (one of them was actually a model). Up until he married a very attractive woman.

KL says:

The thing is, there are really very few people who are truly “ugly” in the sense that you want to turn away when you see them. Most people are average-looking. So, although looks can be a deciding factor between two otherwise equal-value men, for the most part they are not make-or-break. But confidence is definitely make or break for a girl.

I knew a girl in high school, big pretty eyes, great body, sexy all-around. She once texted her boyfriend with the message “hey, hottie.” After she sent it, she remarked “actually, i don’t think he’s that hot.” And yet she was smitten with this guy.

Fact is, women care about looks, but not nearly as much as men do. “Looks” for a women more often refers to how he dresses, how he smells, his hair, his facial hair, personal hygiene–and all of that in turn points to his confidence, how he values himself, etc. And all very controllable.

I’ve seen way too many average-face guys get hot chicks to believe otherwise.

Defender says:

i feel as if you have posted about this fellow before…

Pedro says:

I am a pretty overall confident guy. I have done well in my career but not with women in general. I am pretty short for a guy, only 5’3. I had some problems as child so my growth was stunted a bit. I have really tried but it seems all for naught.

I am now 31 years of age and have studied game and have to tell you, I think this whole confidence thing works if you are more “average” in height and looks. I have yet to have a real girlfriend. I had relations with women but not the best quality, beggars cannot be choosers. The women that I do like just do not take me seriously and I have tried online, my friends to set me up, social events and all kinds of things. Nothing works. I am talking normal average women. Not models or anything. I have tried going out during the day. Nothing. So its like a lost life for dating. I get women who tell me straight to my face that they feel strange with a short or shorter guy. Women are not kind.

So what do I do? How do I overcome this? I am sick and tired of hearing “be more confident” well I am. That’s not the issue. I approach, I go out and try but women just do not like short guys. How do I tactically overcome this?

Lee says:

Pedro,

What you’re looking for doesn’t exist. There is no magic formula – nothing to say, no strategy – to overcome your perceived deficit. You’re shorter than average, which means you have to do other things better. I believe that Neil Strauss is 5’6″. That’s taller than 5’3″ but it’s not Mystery’s 6’5″. Yet, Neil and Mystery are mentioned in the same breath as world renowned pickup artists. What does this mean? At the very least, it means that height must be far from the only consideration. If it were, Neil wouldn’t make it into the top 1,000. I have to be honest with you. Your belief that your height crucially matters pretty much guarantees that you can’t be confident when you deal with women. You think you are, but your body is probably signaling your belief that you are not desirable. Have you ever been coached by someone good, someone who really had a chance to observe you in action?

Eric Disco says:

I am pretty short for a guy, only 5′3… I get women who tell me straight to my face that they feel strange with a short or shorter guy… So what do I do? How do I overcome this? I am sick and tired of hearing “be more confident” well I am. That’s not the issue. I approach, I go out and try but women just do not like short guys.

Just today in the news…

Girl Kills Rival in Love Triangle Over Guy

This 5’5″ fast-food cook (no, not rich) was sleeping with three girls at the same time, causing an 18-year-old girl to take out her rival.

Josh Camacho, a 21-year-old from Pinellas Park, Florida, was not the kind of kid you want your daughter dating. He was a swaggering, 5-foot-5 pissant who enjoyed having pictures taken of him flexing his muscles, holding a gun, smoking weed. But the Chik-fil-A cook did have a way with the teenage girls. He had a son at age 19 with Erin Slothower, a woman he referred to as his “baby mama,” though he never paid child support and rarely visited the child. He also had two girls he described as “friends with benefits” — 18-year-old Rachel Wade and 17-year-old Sarah Ludemann. Both had been swept away by teenage love for Josh.

Lee says:

Video of Neil Strauss on Jimmy Kimmel show. Jessica Alba is the other guest. She is 5’6″ and you can see that he’s just a bit shorter: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7955135786830905802#

AreaWoman says:

@Rham: Of course every girl wants her Prince Charming, especially if he comes riding a gorgeous horse and happens to own a castle, but alas, Prince Charming only exists in fairy tales. “Sisterhood of the No”?? In all my years of dating I have never heard of such an “organization.” The fact that you believe that girls systematically and automatically say no to guys, so much so that it becomes a hobby and a possible conspiracy to reject every man out there is indicative of the extent of your delusion. But thanks for the laughs. Oh, and one more thing: can you give me an example of a “derelict studly type”? I’ve been having a hard time picturing someone who fits that description.

Being confident is not about putting up a facade, or masking insecurity with over-the-top cockiness. And it goes way beyond simply approaching women. When a guy is confident, what it means to girls is that he is not only willing to reach out to us (which, admittedly can be somewhat intimidating at times), but that he is also comfortable in his own skin, doesn’t make any apologies for who he is, faces life’s challenges with strength and readiness, stands up for himself, and all those other good things. This is not only sexy but it keeps us going and interested. I’ve met a number of hot guys (one a model) who were wishy-washy, shy and awkward with girls. Yes, of course I was instantly taken by their looks on each occasion, but as soon as they revealed more of themselves, I always ended up shaking my head and lamenting all that beauty wasted. If a guy is insecure, scared and shaky he is showing signs of weakness, and that’s not at all attractive to us no matter how handsome he might be. It’s not a woman’s job to bring out the man in you. Fear and shyness make you look silly at best, and at worst a word that starts with the letter “p” and rhymes with mussy… There are so many actors whom I consider to be just plain ugly but their talent and charisma completely overcome their physical shortcomings. Does this mean you have to be a famous actor to get girls? Not necessarily, but it definitely means that you have to put some thought and effort into it. If you approach us with this kind of defeatist attitude, do you seriously expect us to accept you? No way. We don’t like feeling uncomfortable.

Axel says:

Thank you for that. I reckon more women should post here, the genuine female perspective on all this is invaluable for maintaining faith if you yourself don’t see it working IRL.

Hey, Eric, maybe you could try getting more women you know to post here? I’m sure that would work wonders with those of us who have doubts, such as Kevin and Alex and so on.

Rham says:

@AreaWoman

You have some valid points. The “Sisterhood of the No” is something I have run across way too often in life. Confidence or no confidence it really does not matter. If a woman is not into you or does not like the way you look, your eyes, your height, your hair or whatever her filtering process maybe, she is just not into you. All of these “gurus” profess to know prescriptive means to remedy this, such as trying to build attraction or what they call “turning up the heat.” I am sorry if a chick is not into you, she is not into you unless you show somekind of uber value and this is particularly for very attractive women. They can have any guy they want so why would they settle for less? I am less in their eyes. You can “well thats what you project then you are.” Sorry, no. If they want a 6ft dude, they will go after that. Its like buying a car. If a person wants a Toyota, they will go buy a Toyota. It does not mean that Honda’s or VW’s are bad cars – quite the contrary. They just prefer Toyota’s.

Women pick men like that. They want a certain type of man and will go for that man. Now it can occur that they may “settle” for a Honda or a VW if the situation is right, the payment is right, the interest rate but overall they pretty much know what they want.

So a “Sisterhood of the No” is a group that goes out, says NO for sport and goes after guys they want. Simple as that.

Now a guy who is a “derelict studly type” is your typical ie – musclebound or tattooed covered guy that screams “bad boy” treats women like dirt, owes everyone money, usually does drugs and lives in his mothers basement. Women love these kinds of guys. They crave them. I have at least 4 women friends (two lawyers, one a DR. and other a milllionaire PR Type) that date guys like these. Go into any club or bar in NYC, CHicago or a big city and you will find this. Happens alot. Just look around.

Nonstop says:

Well, I’m glad you are able to recognize your sticking points and inner game issues Rham; that’s the first step to getting what you want. If you believe the world works that way, then it does, and no one can convince you otherwise.

This is the big disconnect that a lot of people fall into. They think that they have to be those douchebags in order to get women that they are attracted to. No, they just to express the confidence, assertiveness, adventurousness, etc and treat women like they would a normal person. Ie: don’t let them get away with shit or pander to them.

The other thing that’s important to realize is: “a hot women can get any guy she wants”. This is A) bullshit, B) not a big win, C) not something she feels gives her power.

Stop thinking like a man and understand that from a woman’s perspective, this isn’t that good.

a) There aren’t hardly as many “good looking”, confident, or attractive guys out there as there are women. Slim pickings.

b) Mainly the slim pickings thing… but also, those highly desired men usually have multiple women already… so even if she was with him, she wouldn’t feel as special. Also, since most men are only looking to fuck women, she would likely feel underappreciated as well, not knowing if a man she chooses really liked her or was just pretending.

c) If she can have whoever she wants, there’s no value in it (him). If she has to be the chooser, she automatically takes on male characteristics leaving less room to be beautifully feminine. When a woman doesn’t respect her man, it’s going to be a rocky relationship.

The definition of insanity is doing the sane thing and expecting different results. Try doing something different without preconceiving that it’s not going to work and see what happens.

Ask those beautiful women if they can really have any man they want, and how they feel about it.

Axel says:

So.. you’re gonna argue with a woman about what she finds attractive?

Her: I find X and Y attractive.
You: No, you don’t.

That’s what I’m seeing here. You don’t reckon you might have misunderstood what’s been going down? Because that’s real easy to do.

Lee says:

It’s funny how half of the community complains about all the rich, good looking guys getting the chicks, while the other half complains about all of the scumbags living in their moms’ basements. Both can’t be true. What is true is that there are some characteristics common to all of the men who get the chicks. Bad boys are rule breakers. It takes confidence to be a rule breaker. Just try walking into a club wearing loud purple pants. Most men can’t pull it off, which is why it attracts the attention of women when guys peacock. Same for tattoos or clothes that say say “rock-n-roll mothafucka”. Shy guys don’t like to be so visible.

Rham says:

@Non-stop

Of course these women can have whom they want. They are very picky creatures.

If all this evolutionary stuff is true and that women always go for the best “genes”, “sperm”, then they will go for who they think is best. The entire community preaches this that we are driven by our evolutionary needs. Its discouraging but makes sense – so hot women will pick who they want. They do, sorry. One usually sees very attractive women with guys of high value – money, looks or status – right? Well if a guy does not have any of those he is told to use “game.’ Well after trying this for a number of years, I have not found to work at all. I have females friends tell me to my face they can pick the guys they want and they typically do. Its really discouraging but they do. And they love doing it.

@Lee

It is a paradox – women love the cream and the curds at the bottom. Both are challenges to women and the women today just seem to love that. I have female friends and acquaintances that one minute date a drug dealer and the next an investment banker. A school teacher like me that makes ok money – salt of the earth decent guy gets “0.” I have not value to women so it seems for I am not a challenge. Yeah I can try banter and be a challenge that way but women today want more than that. Perhaps its the affect of Hollywood and Oprah, I do not know.

I have been at this game thing for years and no matter what I have tried, it just does not work. Women want what they want – tall, good looking or money or status guys.

Rham says:

@Nonstop:

You said: “If she can have whoever she wants, there’s no value in it (him). If she has to be the chooser, she automatically takes on male characteristics leaving less room to be beautifully feminine. When a woman doesn’t respect her man, it’s going to be a rocky relationship.”

Sure she is going to find value in it. If she finds some studly guy – she can brag to her friends. If she finds some money guy – she gets goodies. If she finds some really successful public guy -she feels like a princess.

Look at Angelina Jolie – she went after Brad Pitt. I heard her in interviews talk about how hot she felt with him and even thought he was married to Jennifer Aniston – she went right for him. He still had value – no?

Same thing with Jennifer Lopez with her beau and on and on…on a smaller scale I have this friend Becky that looks like a 25 year old Penelope Cruz – awesome and smart. She picks her boyfriends. Goes out to clubs starts talking to the guys she wants and they fall like flies. She picks who see wants.

Also look at women that go to sperm banks. Does that sperm they pick lose value in their eyes? No. It gains. They want the best as they see it and go for it.

So no, I am sorry there is no value lost. They want what they want. Why cant the community tell the truth about this?

Lee says:

@Rham

What I am saying is that it’s not a paradox. High status men and good looking men have some the same characteristics as bad boys. They are confident. Bad boys are rule breakers, and it takes confidence to be a rule breaker. It all goes back to confidence. If you believe what you write, by definition, you don’t have confidence when approaching women. Confident men have an unshakable belief that attractive women want them. Dude, think about what you’re saying. Neil Strauss – one of the world’s best pickup artists – is 5’6″, bald, and not terribly attractive. What does he have that makes women like him, women who have never, ever heard of him?

Axel says:

This reminds me of when I attempted one of Lee’s tricks – giving a girl my email address and then ideally recieving an email some time after. Result: No email.

So what happened?
Is the thing Lee’s used successfully on countless women suddenly horse shit? Or did I, the humble novice, perhaps fuck up at some interval and that’s why it didn’t work? Which is more likely?

Hey man. It’s worked for a LOT of men, reportedly with unthinkable physical blemishes. Chances are it could work for anyone who come to it with an open mind.

Rham says:

@Axel

What is the definition of “its worked”?

Nonstop says:

More importantly, Rham, in spite of all the successful guys out there and on this site, why do you have such a vested interest in saying none of this works, and that the community is a lie?

Fair enough if you have not had the results you want or if your current reality is contrary to what we want here… but what is your motivation to discourage other men (and women) ?

Lee says:

@Axel

If it makes you feel better, most of the time, it doesn’t work for me either. But it works often enough, and without the chasing that usually accompanies a good pickup. Still, it takes a little practice to time it just right – to create enough value and pull away from her at just the right moment.

Axel says:

I’d say the defenition would be they have had women attracted to them, and/or beyond (making out, sex, relationship).
Eric and Lee will have copious stories to back this up, I’m sure.

Rham says:

@Nonstop,

I really dont know if they are truly successful with all this game stuff. That’s my point. You can read this and that but is that the truth? And yes I have had women tell me they pick their mates. Is that hard to understand? So if I had your wisdom, I would try and say something like “thats interesting, lets see why they would have done that.”

I am sorry I even came here. No answers here. All this game stuff is a facade and made up to sell products.

Axel says:

Cheers Lee, I appreciate that. I’ve just been reading online and then taking baby steps IRL to move towards what you fellas do. I should mention that it wasn’t an approach ( I’m not that advanced) nor was it very romantic in intention (and yet it was), I just wanted to keep in touch with these women who were leaving town, to stay in their lives for a while longer. I have a long way to go, I think!

My point stands though: If it works for a bunch of people and not for you, chances are you’re not doing it right.

Axel says:

Rham, why would these people lie? If you’re right, why is Eric’s e-book free? Why is the coaching he does so purposely limited in clientelle and financial potential, when he could like say, Lance Mason or John Alanis, have a whole range of products at barely affordable prices? Why is it free to obtain advice and perspective in the forums?

I respect that you’ve walked it and become disillusioned, and frankly I don’t really doubt that women you know choose their mates at will.

But I will advice you to reassess the reasoning behind the choices these women make. I think you should look closer and attempt to decipher what’s going on, no matter what you might discover, even if it what you’ve always though. Attempt to truly understand the concepts we see mentined here with regards to confidence and value, and look closer at the men that they choose. Is there something beyond looks and rogueness that these women go after?

You mentioned looks, status, and wealth earlier. I’d like to just point towards status and say that it is very closely linked to confidence and what’s being talked about in the same breath, as you’veread on this site.

Lee says:

@Rham

I guess I can accept skepticism when it comes to questioning the skills of people like myself. I am a third tier player in this community. Yeah, I coached and some people have seen me do stuff they liked, but I’m no celebrity. But, again, what about a guy like Neil Strauss? Is it possible, using game to do what he did? If that’s a scam, it would be a hard one to pull off. He’d have to have the cooperation of hundreds or thousands of people to pull off a scam like that, including competing members of the community who have no interest in seeing his workshops succeed. Why haven’t they outed him as a fake? Come to think of it, Rham, here is another question: Have you ever met anyone who is inexplicably better than you are at game? Meaning, not someone who is rich or good looking or a bad boy asshole but somebody who is just more playful, more stylish, and more willing to take chances. So many people know someone like that – not a coach or a guru but an ordinary guy with a lot more game than they have. I think that kind of personal experience – not the marketing literature of pickup workshops – is what convinces many men that game works.

Nonstop says:

It’s cool. It’s the internet right? Anything can seem credible and it’s likely bullshit if it’s too good to be true. I used to feel the same way. Although I’d think an entire website full of lies would be better suited to live journal or something…

I have always been and continue to be skeptical. I am very fortunate to have met some PUAs in real life after whom I can model myself. A lot of information on this site is great. The bad thing is, most people only read it and don’t do any of it, or give up after 1 failure and cry that it doesn’t work.

None of the aspects mentioned in entire book ‘The Game’ worked for you? You’re a fucking liar. It doesn’t matter anyway, if things don’t work out, shit sucks, but you move on. I guarantee you that bitching won’t get you what you want either.

Interestingly enough, you brought credibility into the equation. While I doubt Eric minds your counter-”arguments”, you aren’t really looking for help which is contrary to what this site is about.

If you seriously want help, post up in the forums sincerely with detailed interactions and I’m sure people will give you tips.

If you want attention, you got it, but just saying “I have hot friends who do this and nothing works for me, you’re all wrong” won’t keep anyones interest for long.

Rham says:

@Lee

Actually I do not know any of my friends, family or acquaintances that are good with attractive women that do not have either one or some combination of height, looks, money or status. My problem is that I do not have any of them. So I have studied game. I read The Game. I thought Neil can do it, I can. I was told it was the great equalizer. Well it never happened over the last 5 years and I have a number of friends it did not work for either. So I know I am not alone. One of my friends became so discouraged he is now marrying a Russian bride. He is a very short guy (maybe 5’2) and women would give him all kinds of crap about his height. Great guy, heart of gold but women treated him terribly so he is doing what he has to do. This is why I am so discouraged and come to a site like this to seek some answers. I just do not see this stuff working (meaning game). I read about it. I hear about. I see staged videos on youtube. I just have not seen it.

So my personal experience has never witnessed it working for a guy like myself. J

Rham says:

@Nonstop

No, The Game stuff never worked for me. I can put you in touch with friends of mine that have had the same lack of success with The Game. I am not a liar. You should apologize.

I will post on the forums. I never thought of that.

Axel says:

Where are you located, man?

Rham says:

Chicago area

Axel says:

All right, I’m guessing there’s not a good pickup scene there where you could see for yourself. The scenes are mainly New York and San Francisco, I think.

It’s a shame that we have to travel so far to see what it’s really about!

nonstop says:

You might look for a Chicago lair, but I don’t have any more info other than that they exist. You could also look on Meetup.com for similar type groups (ie: “bar nights” or w/e), if you’re willing to come at it sideways

Lee says:

@Rham

With your experiences – no workshop training, no personal friends who are good with girls, and no evidence that anyone can be good at pickup without some special advantage (looks or money or whatever) – I might feel exactly as you do. In workshops, it is common for coaches to do a few demo approaches for students. There, the difference between the skilled and the unskilled becomes obvious right away. However, short of taking a workshop, I agree with Nonstop that the fastest way to convince yourself that this stuff can work is to join a local lair. Chicago definitely has some. There you will get a chance to hang out with some guys who are really bad and some guys who are really good. What you will notice is that there is not a perfect correlation between the guys who are good looking and rich and the guys who are really good. Once you’ve convinced yourself of that, you can think about whether you want to take a workshop. There are probably a hundred things you are doing wrong that a good coach will notice right away.

Rham says:

@Guys,

Thanks for all your help. You guys do have some heart and thank you for that.

Lee – I have personal friends that are good with attractive girls, they just all happen to have natural advantages like looks, height, money, status,ect. I just do not have any ordinary average (like me lol) that are good with attractive women.

I have taken two bootcamps before with two top companies and both were disasters. They were both with top companies (not Pickup101 but they are both large) and both were disasters. There were no demos, the instructors in both cases were more interested in getting laid on their own. I tried getting my money back and no dice on both occasions. After that I was diligent to learn on my own for a couple of years but nothing clicked. So after getting burned twice for huge sums of money (infact one “guru” still owes me a ton of money for services never provided. I tried getting it back and he will never reply – its a mess but too small for small claims). So you can see I have been kicked around like a tin cup. I have spent a small fortune so far to be played like a toy. Its like dealing with bad used car salesmen.

I should try some of the lairs. Great idea.

I am thinking of taking another workshop with someone that’s honest but I am gun shy to burned again. I just do not have the money to waste these days. I know Eric is in NYC. That might be an idea.

So you can see why I am so down.

I really thank you guys, Lee, NonStop, Axel and Eric for letting me post.

nonstop says:

I wouldn’t spend money on another workshop in that case. The “people” I feel confident in recommending would be the guys at AMP, and also Love Systems. I have no experience with either, but AMP is also not necessarily pickup related, and Love Systems seems credible (google: The Attraction Forums) I’ve never been to a lair, but apparently it’s like a local group of guys sarging and helping etc. You shouldn’t have to pay to get in or for membership either. Don’t be afraid to check out different ones to see which fit your style.

And one last important thing. Be willing to recognize small improvements and be happy about them, little by little. Just because you don’t sleep with a woman you just met the first time doesn’t mean that you didn’t improve. You may have just gone from being able to hold a 10 second conversation with a woman you find attractive to being able to hold a 15 second conversation. That’s great progress, and you need to recognize it. Don’t do what I did and think “well, I didn’t get my hopeful result ____, so it doesn’t count.” That’s shooting yourself in the foot.

Axel says:

As far as workshops go, I would not consider anyone other than Pickup101 or Eric Disco. Intergrity is just too important for me to even consider Love Systems. Also they seem like such good teachers who focus on the needs of both man and woman, and not just getting laid.

This reminds me. Love Systems were in Norway (my country) last year, and there was a reporter from a large Norwegian newspaper tagging along. The profiles attending were this rather short fella from Australia called Mr A or something, and a ginger Englishman with a silly rag on his head calling himself Keychain.

From the article published in the papers weekend magazine, taking in comments from psychiatrists and ordinary women as well as a female expert on the Norwegian pickup scene, the event didn’t come off very good. It seemed to focus much more on getting laid than deep connection and doing what women want men to do to them. The article, form what I recall, didn’t really conclude in any way, but the general gist of it was that it was bullshit. I might still have it somewhere.

Also, when The Game was published in Norway and the whole thing was really kicking up dust worldwide, there were quite a few reviews deeming it to be centered on sneaky manipulation to get women on their backs. I’ve never read it so I don’t know, but the reviews and all this has made me very sceptical about Neil Strauss and Mystery and all of these people and companies, with the exception of Pickup101, John Alanis and Eric Disco.

I guess there would be deflammation of such a thing as pickup in the social democracies of Scandinavia, where the women are strong and more equal to the man than elsewhere.

Is it true that The Game and Love Systems is mostly about manipulation and notches in the belt?

Eric Disco says:

Is it true that The Game and Love Systems is mostly about manipulation and notches in the belt?

The Game and Love Systems have their place. To me, the difference is this. Mystery and many of these other people focus on eliciting a reaction from women. Their focus is entirely on how to change her emotions toward the man.

That’s all well and good. In fact it’s really important. Neil Strauss and Mystery and Love Systems–and many other people out there–have done a lot to progress the science of effecting how people feel about you.

But I feel like this is only part of the equation.

The other part of the equation is how YOU feel. If you read the game, Neil talks about how he’s feeling very few times. And he never talks about how changes in his own personal feelings have effected his ability to interact with others. This is why that type of “game” is criticized as manipulative. It only talks about affecting the woman rather than both yourself and the woman.

When people talk about anxiety, it’s usually about “getting over it.” There’s an idea that in getting better with women, you’re trying to dissociate yourself from your feelings. In order to run asshole game, you need to be cold and heartless.

In reality, the best naturals in the world are MORE in touch with their own feelings. That’s the source of their power. When you can dig deep inside yourself and use that to further your interactions with women, you are in touch with the eternal wellspring of power. It’s no longer about gaming women but about feeling what you want to feel.

In many ways, it’s almost easier to teach people to run asshole game than it is understand their own feelings. AMP attempts to do this, but almost to the detriment of leaving out game completely.

I believe the best path to getting better with women is understanding and appreciating both your own internal struggle–your fears, your inhibitions, your challenges–while you achieve SUCCESSFUL interactions with women.

By focusing on feeling the way you want to feel, you can still have casual relationships, one-night-stands and all the sex you want, but it comes with more integrity because you aren’t leaving YOURSELF out of the equation. It’s as much how you feel about yourself as it is how she feels about you.

Eric

Lee says:

@Rham

Geez, dude. No wonder you’re down on this stuff. That’s a terrible story. The coaches I know really want their students to succeed and feel all of their pain. The guys you dealt with sound like some serious sleazoids.

KL says:

“In many ways, it’s almost easier to teach people to run asshole game than it is understand their own feelings.”

That’s so true.

It’s funny, I guess my journey was a little different from most guys. When I started learning about this stuff several years ago, I studied mainly David Wygant and a company in the UK called PUA Training. Pretty soon I started following Eric Disco, as well. All of them have a lot of great material about inner game, your mental state, your personality, etc., as well as outer game and specific actions to take.

I only learned about Mystery and Neil Strauss et al relatively late in the “game.” And by that point I was so focused on my inner state, my attitude and improving myself from the inside out that I found those tricks and games cute and fun, but not super useful. In fact, from the beginning, I was really interested in genuine improvement, becoming a better person and being able to relate to women, even in a totally non-sexual way.

Improving yourself from the inside out, and fixing your mindset/ attitude is more difficult than learning tricks, but it is so much more satisfying and much more effective in the long run, because it means you can act and react to whatever situation, because that’s your new personality. But if all you have is a bag of tricks, you’re eventually going to run out of material.

Axel says:

PUA Training, that’d be Gambler and that lot, yeah? How do they compare to Eric and the rest, regarding integrity, etc?

Cheers for the reply, Eric! That’s definitely the right focus.

Lee says:

Asshole game is like the dark side of the force, seductive because it is easier to learn and initially more powerful. But men who meet women this way fall into the trap of starting every relationship without any genuine connection or mutual admiration. Women will sleep with men if men show a dominance and mastery of the social environment. The question is should men want to sleep with those women. I have never seen anyone who runs this type of game in normal relationships. There’s a big difference between these types of tricks and legitimate techniques for speeding up the process of making real connections with women.

Nonstop says:

@Lee

Exactly. Most pickup stuff I’ve seen is slated towards ONS type stuff, and unfortunately, most guys are more than happy with that and never strive for more.

Also, the LS comment I made was geared towards my opinion of one of their coaches, Starlight. I had read some of his stuff where he does run game, but also emphasizes real connection. I was being overly broad by categorizing him as LS.

Digger says:

“When people talk about anxiety, it’s usually about getting over it. There’s an idea that in getting better with women, you’re trying to dissociate yourself from your feelings. In order to run asshole game, you need to be cold and heartless.

In reality, the best naturals in the world are MORE in touch with their own feelings. That’s the source of their power. When you can dig deep inside yourself and use that to further your interactions with women, you are in touch with the eternal wellspring of power. It’s no longer about gaming women but about feeling what you want to feel.”

Eric, could you please go more into detail with that.
During the last years, I worked a lot on getting more in touch with my feelings and it certainly enriched my life. But: with becoming much more sensitive than other men, I would fall in love tooo quickly and get very needy. And too respectful. I don’t push boundaries.
Another thing is that I developed very good rapport skills from that. I can connect very good and women open up very fast to me. But with that, I instantly end as the emotional garbage bin, because they start pouring out their problems right away. And then I end up in the friend zone.

So, to get this issue resolved, I try to get unaffected and unreactive again (also to stay chill and not get instant brain-freeze after an approach). Otherwise my brain always switches into “needy puppy” mode as soon as I talk to an attractive woman. Reading your post, it doesn’t sound like a good idea anymore. Isn’t being emotionally unreactive what being outcome independant is all about?

Eric Disco says:

You want to become more sensitive. But this doesn’t mean that you turn into a pushover. On the contrary.

You want to be able to negotiate your relationships and be sensitive to yourself as well as the other person’s feelings. This means you notice right away when someone is dumping on you rather than connecting with you.

If you feel yourself getting needy or getting into a bad situation, you know to pull away right away and manage your feelings. You manage your feelings by taking action.

This also doesn’t mean that you become overly respectful. Instead, you know when and where to push your boundaries. You know where to challenge yourself.

That’s what all this is about. Getting laid is awesome, I love getting laid. But what’s even better than that is feeling what you want to feel with people.

You’ll feel slightly off balance when you meet a girl you really like. That’s good. But you don’t let it get out of control. You keep your wits about you. You enjoy the ride.

There are certain areas where you do become less sensitive. When you walk up to a girl and she blows you off, it stings a bit, but it doesn’t wreck my life as it would a few years ago. There’s no emotional involvement there. My reaction is appropriate. But it doesn’t mean I’m turning off my feelings.

I’m always checking in with myself about how I feel. If I’m feeling anxiety, I acknowledge that and realize it. It doesn’t mean I don’t take action. On the contrary, checking in with my feelings helps me to manage them and I can decide to take action in spite of those feelings and along with those feelings.

If I’m feeling nervous, I can use that energy and inject it into the interaction to make it more meaningful for both of us. It’s an intensity that wouldn’t be there if I weren’t in touch with my feelings.

Eric

KL says:

@Axel. Haha do the PUA Training guys not have integrity? Idk, a lot of their material has helped me, anyway. Establishing a sexual vibe, learning how and when to touch, from tactical stuff like getting the number to inner game/ mindset and attitude, etc.

Tz says:

Digger wrote: “During the last years, I worked a lot on getting more in touch with my feelings and it certainly enriched my life. But: with becoming much more sensitive than other men, I would fall in love tooo quickly and get very needy. And too respectful. I don’t push boundaries.
Another thing is that I developed very good rapport skills from that. I can connect very good and women open up very fast to me. But with that, I instantly end as the emotional garbage bin, because they start pouring out their problems right away. And then I end up in the friend zone.”

It sounds to me like you’re not in touch with your feelings, but rather more in touch with what you *think* her feelings are. In other words, Are your feelings really telling you that you to become needy and too respectful and not push boundaries, etc? Or are your feelings more along the lines of you’d like to kiss her, touch her, have sex with her, not be needy, have her respect you, etc? I suspect the latter is more accurate of your true feelings. But what you’re going by is what you think she’s feeling or wants. You’re projecting these notions on to her. Of course, if she’s romantically interested in you, that’s not what she’s feeling at all. She actually does want you to initiate physical intimacy, not be subordinate to her, etc. But forget about her. The important thing is what are you feeling and are you actually tuned in to that and staying true to what you want? Or are you just doing what you think she wants because you think it will get you what you want?

Axel says:

KL, I don’t know, but I get the odd email from Gambler promoting the latest product or whatever. When I first read them six months ago or something, and read one of their rapports, it didn’t sit right with me. It somehow seemed to focus more on chasing tail than connecting, but that’s just an impression I got.

slimm says:

“If I’m feeling nervous, I can use that energy and inject it into the interaction to make it more meaningful for both of us. It’s an intensity that wouldn’t be there if I weren’t in touch with my feelings.”

I seem to avoid situations/taking actions all the time because of how extremely nervous I get.

How do you go about injecting that nervous energy into a more meaningful interaction?

Is it realizing that your nervous, then trying to turn that nervous energy into excitement, and then doing that thing makes you nervous?

I am alive says:

Interesting post. Even more interesting comments. There is definitely truth to that- acting confident and “meh, i don’t care” is better than being ”if i do this, but if i do that”. At the end of the day this is not your life at stake, there are plenty of fish in the pond.

Mike Roch says:

Dudes,

It isn’t that hard. Just keep lowering your standards until you find the one you’re looking for. Water finds its own level, you should too! We all want hot broads, but if you’re 45, bald, broke, etc. You’re not getting a hot 22 yo. Face it, and grab a nice 42 yo broad. Phuck, not so difficult.

Lee says:

There are many reasons to choose a woman closer to your own age, but being 45, bald, and broke is not one of them. You’d be more correct if you were counseling wimpy, boring dudes to lower their expectations. To the extent that wimpy, boring dudes also represent a greater fraction of unattached 45 year olds, you’re right.

TAllagash says:

i agree with Lee’s comment about the dark side of the force being asshole game. It is super effective, and in particular on younger girls and past their prime girls esp.

but i don’t think it leads to relationships that are as productive for both parties.

it sets a negative cycle/frame for the entire relationship.
but then, i think most relationships degrade into needing the man to be in charge and willing to walk away for the woman to respect him. so what do i know?

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