Now I Understand

by Eric Disco
Jul 9

now-I-understand1


…………………………………………

now-I-understand2

-----------------

posted in Miscellaneous

COMMENTS
130 responses
Nonstop says:

Epic. I used to almost completely fit that description; glad I’m on the path to changing my life.

I too wonder WTF happened where most men have stopped trying to be men. I am learning the game, but my goal is to reclaim the manliness I have shied away from.

Paul says:

Thats awesome…I almost needed to wear a depends when I read this…lol…

Eric Disco says:

Seems like it’s missing credit and/or link to the original webcomic.

It is missing credit and a link to the author. I found it posted on imgur a while ago with no credit. Extra bonus points if someone can find out who it is. I will link to him/her.

Eric

Z says:

Seems like it’s missing credit and/or link to the original webcomic.

KL says:

If i looked like a ping pong ball attached to a stick, i would be pretty depressed too.

Berko says:

Its so funny, but at the same time… Hurts so much…
I think i need it.

Tnks. Great blog.

Tido says:

This is a bit frustrating, what’s one to do, if some of those statements made by the girl are true? Especially the thing about not living your life/making mistakes, is that all there it to it? Just get out there and make social mistakes and learn from them?

Nonstop says:

@Tido

That’s part of it. Unfortunately most people can’t even grasp what it means to live their life. You should go out there, have fun and LEARN from your mistakes. You should also find something that you love so much that if anyone asked you about it, you could talk ENTHUSIASTICALLY for hours about. If you can’t think of anything outside of women that really makes you happy, you better go find it.

Another thing to realize is that The Game is only the beginning. Start with openers, scripts, routines until you learn how to act and what to expect… then evolve into a version of you that incorporates the behavoirs that those things accomplish naturally into your lifestyle.

Matt says:

“You should also find something that you love so much that if anyone asked you about it, you could talk ENTHUSIASTICALLY for hours about.”

And for those of us for whom that just happens to BE our favourite RPG + religion and politics?

rama says:

matt is right, what about people who do actually care about the debate, their culture and politics? Does that just seem too ‘nonfun’ to people that it doesn’t fit into the mold? I found the dialog rather bland and unsophisticated. That chick doesn’t even know how cookie cutter her views are, nor how some people willingly love spending hours studying for their careers and hobbies.

She can’t be serious, she wants to be enticed and entertained constantly. Nobody can offer that much to someone else short of being put on drugs – she would prefer her relationships to mirror those of fast car chase scenes and I don’t agree with that view. People who are smart have an opinion on lots of topics but are more likely to be expert in a particular area. We cannot possibly disparage someone for being a nuclear engineer and calling them boring for not being as fun as a guy who does something less stimulating mentally. Sorry, not buying it. That chick would bore me after a few hours. She isn’t interesting, but she believes she is.

Young people today are really hitting home the message this dialog insists upon – nothing matters, mistakes are okay and we should be constantly seeking entertainment in life and love. Good luck with that.

Matt says:

…huh. I didn’t get that out of her at all, just that she was a mouthpiece for the whole backlash against Nice Guy-ism.

Which I agree with, actually… I’m more concerned about how the strip’s author (who I am almost certain is male, and strongly suspect is Anonymous) seems to start conflating that with the whole nerd/jock thing in a way that’s almost as unhealthy as the Nice Guyism the author is deriding to begin with.

nonstop says:

Interesting interpretations rama/Matt

Bah, it’s hard to respond without it sounding like a personal attack. The easiest way to explain it that won’t make any sense is that you guys just don’t “get it”.

Ask yourselves this: Has what you’ve been doing thus far gotten you what you want?

Even if you both enjoy debate, do you appeal to all parties present by using NLP style communications and expert storytelling skills to invoke emotions in your argument — not just logical arguments?

rama’s paragraphs are fairly dull and combative, with very few words that trigger any emotional response (drugs, fast car chases), and fewer that would appeal to women.
-Not to mention the last paragraph explains your frustrations since we often project onto others how we are feeling on the inside.

When you are good with women, you will pass shit tests without having to think about them, so it won’t be hardly as tedious as you might think.

—–
@Matt
I used to be a gamer, hardcore, not a WoWfag either. Still play FPS a bit, but not as a priority. I was very passionate about it, but couldn’t really relate to the women I was attracted to with it. I explored other areas of my life and found hobbies I enjoyed just as much that put me out in the world and that I could easily involved other people (especially women) without a high barrier to entry. It’s hard to get someone to sit down at a PC and become engaged in a PC game if they aren’t familiar with computers… but it’s easy for me to show someone a simple martial arts technique, or give them a taste of hypnosis without having to go anywhere.

Part of this is self improvement. Are you doing things that you enjoy that are also attractive to the type of women you want to meet? Are you willing to try new things in the chance that you might actually enjoy them more than gaming and being a pseudo-debater? I think the issue is not that you like RPG/debate, but rather that you think that that’s all you like.

—-
Almost everyone I know, especially myself, is afraid to take a chance and change or try something new for fear that they might become worse off than they are now. We all sit here on the internet talking about things and pondering WHY? but few of us actually go and find out. Guess what? Those few that do put in the effort to leave the house and investigate/research/ PRACTICE these questions end up getting results, while the rest of us sit here mentally masturbating wondering why we’re not getting the women we want.

And another thing that I read today that makes a lot of sense. If you’re a mediocre guy not fully living your life, even if you do get a girl, why do you think she would be extra amazing and do all the crazy sexual things you dreamed of when all you are is mediocre?

This isn’t just about women, it’s about life. When you change your life to be awesome, there’s a strong probability that awesome women will happen to be there and they’ll be looking for you.

KL says:

Matt:

As a guy with a passion for politics and religious and philosophical issues myself, let me tell you that i once thought there was a basic disconnect between those of us with superior minds and the unwashed masses.

Then i realized that i was lonely and horny. In other words, i had the same kinds of desires as most other people. I was having a great time exploring ideas and concepts alone, but I wanted other things, too, including human connection.

I know you weren’t necessarily coming from that perspective, but that’s my experience, which is on the same wavelength. The way I overcame that limiting belief was by accepting my baser human needs and desires (which I had been essentially denying, in many ways–ironically, a very irrational thing to do). I realized that there is no basic tension between a strong intellect and a strong sexuality.

The key thing is to nourish ALL aspects of your life; sacrificing everything for sex is unhealthy and bizarre, and so is sacrificing everything for your career, or for food, or for your writing, etc. A really attractive man is a man who is well-rounded in a number of areas, from romance to politics to just being able to shoot the breeze and hang out. And that’s why the guys who do the best with women (in a healthy and sustainable way, not in an artificial “gamey” way) are the guys who embrace a variety of experiences.

Matt says:

That is the answer I was looking for, thank you.

(Though in other news I really do need to get out more… as indicated by the fact that the moment I read “well-rounded” I instantly thought of the following pun: Do The Mario.)

Axel says:

I reckon this is a good one, what irks me just a bit and gets me perhaps a little defensive is that this girl here doesn’t take into consideration what made this fella seclude himself with his RPG and whatever. Speaking for myself, I had most of my confidence and impulsiveness beaten out of me in school, and I’ve been dealing with reviving it ever since.
I see her point and all, but sometimes it’s not that much of a conscious decision to abandon one’s own manlyness, it’s just a natural reaction to draw inwards when the outside is all pain.

I dunno, that just struck me. Whaddya guys reckon?
(Hey btw Eric, I linked this on a site, hope you don’t mind)

Tido says:

@ noname
“I explored other areas of my life and found hobbies I enjoyed just as much that put me out in the world and that I could easily involved other people (especially women) without a high barrier to entry.”

Would you mind telling us what those hobbies are? I’m always looking at trying new things. My concern with picking hobbies though, is that they not be a means to an end, i.e. to get women. The only time I had girls attracted to me (that I noticed, :) ) is when I was taking improvisation classes and had a strong passion for Argentine tango. I was pursuing the tango connection so much, that I probably missed many opportunities or I screwed up interactions with women. For instance there was one woman in class which I was super attracted to, she made my heart flutter. At that time in my life, taking improvisation classes, I was trying to kill the shy side of me. I think she was flattered by me reaction to her as on one occasion she came and purposely sat next to me. Not sure what the conversation was about, but she disclosed that she is shy. Even though I was supper attracted to her I gave her a cold shoulder. This is because I was not able to accept shyness in myself, hence why I could not accept is in this hot girl. Owww brother, you live you learn, I guess. I never danced with her.

One woman in particular had the balls to chase me, she even asked me for contact information, but she never did call me, not surprised though. She was taller than me, though sexy/intelligent, I had some stupid notion that a girl must be shorter than me. But I think the real reason was insecurity and not having to balls to take a chance with this girl.

I digressed, but I just wanted to say these things. Getting our there, you definitely learn much, though the results are not as one always wants/expects. Women know if you just doing those hobbies to get girls, and that says all the wrong things such as being insecure and being a creep. Though some girls probably do the same thing, :) . So the lesson is to be congruent to why you are doing the hobbies and deal wit the consequences.

nonstop says:

@Axel
Even though we’re all extrapolating heavily with this stick figure drawing (lol)… she doesn’t take into consideration why the guy is not manly because it’s not her problem. Everyone gets hurt at some point in their life. You can either use it as an excuse, or find the strength and help to get over it and better your life. The nurturing woman you might be looking for nurtures men that strive onward despite the pain, not those that sit around wallowing in it.

@Tido
I have two other primary interests currently.
1) Martial arts: Wing Chun and Escrima. Not only do they help me feel more skilled and in control of my body as well as able to handle what might come at me, but I look more attractive from working out. If you live near San Diego, we have a free Escrima class this month; you can click my posting name for my email.

2)Hypnosis/NLP. I used to not believe in this stuff. It was fun to watch, but I thought “I can’t be hypnotized, I’m too smart for that.” Then when I actually tried it, I realized that it’s not just what you see on stage for performances, and that being smart and willing is actually better. Attending this group found on Meetup.com, I met a lot of cool people that do things that you wouldn’t believe unless you saw it yourself. I’m learning to hypnotize and influence, not just being hypnotized.

I can’t stress how important this hypnosis group has been for me. The main guy is someone who is incredibly skilled with influence, martial arts, and women. He has really opened my eyes to what’s possible and that there’s more to getting women than just using scripts/routines/openers. I’m developing my skill still at the moment, but I’ve gotten far enough that these 6-7s at regular lunch place can’t help but smile when I give them solid eye contact and start getting nervous when I talk to them. Before, I wouldn’t even have recognized if I was doing anything right.

It has also helped me clear up a lot of limiting/negative beliefs that have been holding me back. Until someone points something out to you, you may not realize how it’s affecting you. Also, we’re having an inner game workshop this next month which will help me get even better.

Now Tido. You have recognized where you can improve and succeed. Dancing is an excellent way to meet women, especially if you actually like dancing (even I plan to pickup salsa sometime, and/or swing).

Let me be clear, There is nothing wrong with wanting to fuck women.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH WANTING TO FUCK WOMEN.

Yes it’s not really going to work for you if your only reason for doing something is to try to meet women to sleep with — they’ll be able to tell. If you can appreciate and enjoy what you’re doing, and then also appreciate the women for who they are, while making the right moves at the right times, you’ll end up sleeping with them anyway– they’ll somehow end up alone with you and things will just happen, naturally, as they should.

Maybe you could pickup dance again with your new understanding and instead of getting shy, you could get to know these women at the same time. Who knows, you might even want to have some extra dance practices at your place ;)

Mark02 says:

This one is painful to read. I want to be a f***ing savage uncivilized arsehole too but I don’t know how. The best I’ve been able to do is be a confident, assertive nice guy. I don’t know how to banter and be cocky and sexual like the arseholes do.

I feel kind of lost. This kind of thing makes me angry, but I know that’s the wrong response, I know I have to improve myself. It just seems impossible that I’ll ever be attractive and confident enough for girl.

nonstop says:

@Mark02
It’s not impossible. You just don’t know how to do it, yet :) . An effective way to change is to model yourself after someone else who is successful. You could start going out to places where guys meet women and observing how the guys that are the most successful act around women.

You already know how to banter etc, you just are afraid to do it around women you are attracted to. It’s not your fault that you never learned these skills, but now you have the opportunity to change and take control of your life.

Start small. Even guys who are good at pickup aren’t necessarily good at “manliness”. Seriously.

Francis says:

WOW it’s amazing how much response and emotion this little cartoon has caused. It kind of hit me hard when I read it on Friday night and realised I was sort of the guy she described, reading and calculating how to approach women rather than just getting out there. Since reading I’ve stepped up my approaching and being more direct with women now. No more hiding my true (sexual) intentions from them.

But what I realise about that cartoon is that hardly any women would articulate that in the way the cartoon girl did, but does represent what might be going through on an unconscious level. Which does lead me to believe like someone else mentioned that it was probably drawn by a guy.

I’m quite confused myself where a lot of us guys stopped being real men and just acting on our desires and why other men never stopped or got hindered at all.

@nonstop

The NLP/Hypnosis sounds interesting, could you tell me more about the type of group it is. I’m familiar with meetup.com and used it to find some activities I like doing. What happens in your NLP/Hypnosis group? What do you think has changed about you that you can hold solid eye contact with women and make them smile and nervous when you talk to them

Also what’s the difference between the nervousness of the woman attracted to you compared to the nervousness of the woman who is a little freaked out by you suddenly talking to her?

Thanks

Francis

Axel says:

For me, this whole ‘nice guy who never succombs to desire’ shtick began when I decided to become the antithesis of the people who bullied me when I was a kid. It was never a complete routine thankfully, if I was with my close friends I would take the lead (mostly because I was a year older than most of them). I had too much of a focus on being noble, because you don’t want to go around hurting people and ruining their life (if you’re mean enough, obv).

I think I’ve come upon some form of balance now where I try to do as much as I can to act on impulses and desires while still caring about people around me. I’m not saying this is the way to go, but it’s where I’m at right now.
I have a long way to go, and I have to take baby steps, but I’m getting closer. I’ll take a workshop at some point, but there are none in Scandinavia worth a damn, just the odd Love Systems horseshit deal.

Axel says:

Also I blame hero comics and the song Billy Jean. “Don’t go around breaking young girls hearts.” :-P

alison says:

sara get’s it.

nonstop says:

@Francis

Look at my Meetup profile: http://www.meetup.com/members/11140549/ . Those 4 groups I’m a part of are ran by the same guy (he took over one of those groups actually). There are two key things that make this group/instructor stand out in my mind:
1)He is congruent in and out of the Meetup. His skills are not limited to a treatment room or hypnosis sanctioned event. He applies his skills to all areas of his life
2)We are expected to DO what we learned right then and there. We don’t just talk about learning, we take action and practice it.

The most important thing I would say is that we are presented with our beliefs and then given a choice about whether or not we really believe them. Things that you may never have recognized were controlling how you act are pointed out and you are given the choice of whether or not you still believe it. This is huge. We do learn hypnosis stuff, but a strong focus is placed on “if you want to be a good hypnotist, let’s make you a better person first/at the same time.” Another big thing is paying attention. Recognize what’s happening so that you can see where you’re at and what you’re doing right.

Regarding the women/eye contact/nervous thing:
I usually go to the same places for lunch at work on a weekly basis. So I’ve been going to the same sandwich shop for about 4-5 months, and pretty much the same people have worked there for the same amount of time. I was very forgettable, recognized by the fact that I usually order the same sandwich, but they never remembered (guys and girls). Recently, I’ve been chipping away at my limiting beliefs and really been trying to be more present and involved in the moment; ot me this is really just paying attention and not constantly thinking to myself.

So in these past 2 months or so, I’ve started making nice solid eye contact with the women (and men) there, maybe even having a slight smile. I wait for them to look at me when I speak, and I seem to have more feeling in my words if that makes sense. The women there can’t help but smile, one of them I even had that tingly rapport connection feeling with at one point. Part of it is that I have assumed that they are 17 (too young) and so there’s no risk involved… I’m having fun, and it shows.

This last week, I was in there and one of the ones I’m not as interested in was helping me, and the cuter one walked by without noticing me, and her friend that was helping me signaled for her to recognize me (thinking I didn’t notice). It was like :) , she pointing out that there’s a cute guy here and it’s me lol. And at the end when she was ringing me up, she started talking about stupid things and fairly fast and I literally felt like a sense of nervousness came at me, but from her. It was a positive feeling because of her body language– she was smiling and making positive eye contact, but I could tell she was trying to think of what to say. And I verified it later when I walked out because even though she was helping someone, she made it a point to tell me “have a nice day” from across the room, with both of them looking at me.

Even a new girl there that started for the summer, as soon as we made eye contact, it like… you can feel electricity lol. Looking dead into each others eyes, smiling, you can feel the tension. This new girl was trying to get something out of a drawer for me and she ended up pulling the drawer all the way out and then couldn’t get it back in. It might seem insignificant until you really start to pay attention to how people normally act. Women used to not make mistakes in my presence (or i didnt notice), and they certaintly didn’t hold eye contact so much and smile.

A lot of things that I’ve been reading about for so long are starting to make sense. An example is this girl in my martial arts practice. I’m more or less the assistant instructor based on my experience and so I try to correct people etc. I told this girl to do something that apparently we weren’t doing yet and when she fought me on it, I stood my ground. And then when the actual instructor came by and said to do it a different way (that I was wrong) and she pointed it out to me, I didn’t apologize. I looked at her and said whatever, and made the “pssh” sound and just walked away (standing up to her challenge). Later while we were all debriefing in a circle, she made a point to draw attention ” I learned not to listen to Chris “. The old me would have been like “WTF, she is putting me down.”, but the new me recognized that she said it with a smile on her face, making eye contact, and that she is probably interested in me because I am a challenge.

Hopefully that answers your questions. I can elaborate if you want to email me or contact me through meetup.com

Tido says:

@nonstop
“The nurturing woman you might be looking for nurtures men that strive onward despite the pain, not those that sit around wallowing in it.”

This really rung a bell in my head, thanks. It’s funny, in hindsight the mistakes I’ve made with women in the past have much to do with being comfortable in your own skin. It’s great how paying attention to the whole situation can give you a total different experience. The next time a opens up to me and says I’m shy, I’ll not react and blow her off. I know better now. Thanks for the small interaction examples, I get a good feeling of what you experienced through you descriptions. Because we all probably go through the same emotional responses. Also the meetup.com is a great idea, I’ll have to see whats happening in my city of Toronto. I’m interested in NLP a bit also, particularly with emotional triggers. I’d like to gain a better understanding of what makes me tick. Any books you can recommend on NLP practice. I’m DL a 40GB worth of NLP seminars, hopefully their good.

nonstop says:

@Tido

It’s been hard to resist posting because after all these years I feel like I’m finally understanding all I’ve read and been told and I want other to bridge the gap. These may seem like little things not directly related to approaching, but they have a much larger affect on the whole.

(For everyone)Also, I know I have advocated NLP/Hypnosis heavily in these comments, but that’s because it is something I’m genuinely interested in. What you may be looking for is not NLP/Hypnosis, but rather an activity you enjoy that allows you to be a different person so that you can experience the change you want with the excuse you need to be comfortable acting differently.

You will likely find most of the NLP stuff out there pretty boring. They will tell you to pay attention to too much, and it will overwhelm you and you may get frustrated. I read the “NLP for Dummies” book originally and found it … explanatory … but not motivating to use what I learned. So if you do read NLP books, take them small chunks at a time and then practice on them. And then look for people who are good at it and try to see it in action.

Stephen Crispin says:

My response to her would have been something in the line of “What a b**ch you are! My friendhsip means a lot to you while you think of me as a selfish prick? Who’s the hypocrite now? It was comfortable to have a shoulder you could cry on, as long as you don’t have to put out an ounce of real friendhsip.
And I guess what the ‘life experience’ of your boyfriend is: getting drunk at the bar and cursing each other in the local soccer field. What a great gain compared to a life of studies of such unremarkable people like Plato, Churchill and Turing. Surely all the scientist, leaders and thinkers that has shaped the world as it is now, with all the comfort and freedom you can enjoy thanks to them, aren’t worth emulating compared to the (if it goes extremely well) cubicle life of one of your primitive jerks. I guess that all the culture in the world you’re now comfortably resting and eating upon is some sort of given gift lent to humanity beacause it’s able to get so cutely drunk. Well, good luck then: when one of your primitive masculine guys beat the pulp out of you while drunk, I hope you haven’t sucked the marrow of all of your friends because you’ll need them. Besides, RPG is a SOCIAL activity: my buddies at the D&D table know and support each other ten times better than whatever of your shop-friend could ever do.
Goodbye!”
Sorry for the rant, but I can’t stand when nice guys are targeted this way. If you are a nice guy and some girl tools you like in the comic, tell her to F*CK herself and find a better girl. There are girls out there who likes nice guys. I say that they are the majority… heck, there are nerd girls out there who love playing RPGs :)

Nonstop says:

I’d love to meet your girlfriend.

Lee says:

Guys, the take-away from this cartoon should not be that chicks a) think RPGs are bad, b) prefer assholes, or c) dislike creative, quirky intellectuals. There is a deeper and more important point here, and perhaps that’s why this cartoon has struck a nerve and sparked so much debate. Let’s face it, when it comes to romance, a certain type of man thinks the world is inherently unfair, and would rather mythologize his suffering than do something about it. The reality is that the very best of us fail more often than we succeed, and a fear of failure is what makes some men more comfortable hiding behind their self-righteous indignation.

This is what Sara is railing against. John is not a misunderstood intellectual. He’s not a romantic martyr. He’s a coward. Sarah can see right through John, and the dramatic premise of this cartoon is that – unlike the millions of women who are too polite to say anything – she tells him exactly what she’s thinking. Consider this from her perspective. For years, John didn’t value Sarah enough to risk even a bruised ego! Professing his love now is nothing short of insulting.

Believing the world to be unfair is a dangerous, dangerous crutch. It’s a cancer that eats away at one’s ability to act. On this site, we hear a lot about how hard it is to be a guy, but it’s important to understand some of the ways in which it is much harder to be a woman.

BEAUTIFUL WOMEN CAN’T TELL WHAT MEN ARE REALLY THINKING
On the one hand, you’d think that beautiful women have it easy. But consider the following assymetry. If I approach 10 women, nine are going to say no, but the one who says yes is probably genuinely interested in me. If a beautiful woman approaches 10 men, the numbers are reversed. 9 men will say yes and maybe 1 will say no. The problem is she knows nothing about the intentions of these men or how they perceive her. Their desire to sleep with her aside, she doesn’t know if they actually like her. She doesn’t know if they think she’s stupid. She doesn’t know if they’re married or have girlfriends. She doesn’t know if they live in another town. She knows literally nothing. Her beauty is as much a liability as it is an asset. That’s why she has to be so cautious.

A WOMAN HAS ALMOST NO CONTROL OVER WHICH MEN APPROACH HER
If I don’t find what I want, it’s easy for me to approach more women. A beautiful woman can’t approach men. If she does, the danger is not that they will say no, but that they will say yes for the wrong reasons. Hence, a beautiful woman’s choices are limited to the few men of quality who have the confidence and skills to approach her. And there aren’t many of those around. Sure, beautiful women get whistles and catcalls when they pass construction sites, but those aren’t serious approaches. They are cowardly acts by men who, in their own minds, believe they don’t stand a chance. In fact, most men will never approach a woman.

BEAUTY IS FLEETING – MEN HAVE MUCH MORE TIME TO GET IT RIGHT
Our romantic comedies correctly express our cultural preference for very young women. Case in point, Scarlett Johansson and Hugh Jackman in Scoop(2006). She was 21. He was 39. Our culture is brutally judgemental when it comes to women and beauty. No man can ever truly understand how a beautiful woman feels when, in her thirties, she catches her husband checking out twenty year olds. As men, we are lucky. As we get older, women find us more and more attractive. We have at least 10 more years than women to get it right. (Eric previously posted a study on this site that shows exactly that.)

THERE IS VERY LITTLE A WOMAN CAN DO TO BECOME MORE ATTRACTIVE
Neither style nor confidence nor success make an otherwise unattractive woman significantly more attractive to men. Golda Meir and Margaret Thatcher were not sexier because they held political power or could talk their asses off. On the other hand, there are many ways a man can become more attractive. That’s why there are so many workshops for men and only a few for women. Even something as simple as spending a few thousand bucks on some cool new clothes has a positive effect.

I am sure others can think of more topics to add to the above list. In conclusion, guys, I want to say again that the world is not unfair. The odds are not stacked against you. Do not mythologize the noble loner. Don’t be a John. Instead of spending countless hours retreating into the safe little world you can control, go out, learn to take chances, and make yourselves into the kind of men Sarah would want to date.

Paul says:

@ Lee

Interesting take here but women have incredible power which I see in bars and clubs all the time:

A WOMAN HAS ALMOST NO CONTROL OVER WHICH MEN APPROACH HER

If this is true then why do so many women shit test and bitch shield men beyond the testing stage – I mean its like a contact sport for these women. We all know its a game but to them its more like DeathRace 2000 (I am showing my age with this!). She does have to be cautious from a safety point of view but overall, she has total control. She can date who she wants. Its just a matter of how they allure the guy. If they want a rich guy, they hang out in high end lounges. If they a hot stud then some roof top happening trendy place. Its pretty easy for hot women.

I see guys approach hot women alot. Including me and its brutal. I have a very attractive friend that used to tell me about how she and her friends would go out just to blow off guys and get guys to buy them drinks. Then they would call their f-buddies, go over to their apartments for a shag and that was a weekend. They would basically drink for free and destroy men’s egos. I remember when I lived in Manhattan in the late 90′s. It was very much like that. Still is in Vegas, Miami and LA actually.

Alan says:

I loved the cartoon. So very very true.

I also do not agree that women have no control over who approaches them. They may not have TOTAL control which no body does but control nevertheless. Especially the hot socially savvy women. They know exactly what they are doing and as was stated above they weed guys out all the time. Any good looking woman can have any guy they want in a certain setting. They walk the walk and dress to the tee and know that men are watching them at every move. If ten guys approach, they may not like seven out of the ten but one of them will due for them. They know exactly what they are doing so they have control. Totally.

Lee says:

Paul,

Believe it or not, what you said and what I said are not that far apart. Bitch shields and shit tests – to use community terms – are an attractive woman’s way of trying to determine what kind of man is standing in front of her. She wants to know whether he is confident and socially adept, or if he wilts under pressure. Never mind that this defensive behavior can be gamed. It’s there for a reason, and that reason is the one I explained in my post: If she is attractive enough, almost every man will say yes. Hence, her beauty is a liability as much as it is an asset. It doesn’t attract just the men who are genuinely into her. It attracts any man who is willing to risk a humiliating blowout.

No self-respecting man – pickup artist or otherwise – will ever buy a drink for a woman he just met. Your friend is not meeting quality men. She is meeting submissive men and her behavior is filtering for exactly that character trait.

But let’s take your observation at face value and see what it means in terms of numbers. Suppose the price of talking to her is a drink. How many drinks can a 120 pound girl drink in one night? 3? 4? 5!? Let’s be generous and say 7. That’s 14 times she is approached on Friday and Saturday (assuming Friday’s hangover didn’t ruin Saturday night!). Of those, 1/5 will be drunk assholes who would not approach if they weren’t extremely drunk, and another 1/5 will be men who don’t care that she’s drunk (after 7 drinks!), sloshing her appletini and slurring her speech. That leaves 10 good weekend approaches.

But now think about this. She didn’t select these ten, so there is a good chance that only some of them are attractive to her. Let’s be generous and say that half are. (I am physically attracted to something like one in twenty of the women I see and I live in New York City!) That’s five good approaches for a lot of wear and tear! I don’t know how long a woman can survive this regimen before her good looks are ground away!

Again let’s be generous and assume she is approached twice every weekday. That’s another 10, of which, let us assume she is also attracted to half. Boy, we are really bending over backwards to make the numbers work in her favor!

10 welcome approaches?! That’s it? That’s a beautiful party girl’s big advantage over me? Dude, I can do 10 approaches in one hour on a sunny afternoon in the park across the street from me! No hangovers and every girl I approach will be attractive.

But it doesn’t end there. I can have even more control over my targets. For example, if I want brainy girls, I can go to the bookstore or the library. I can approach girls with a certain style or girls with tattoos and piercings.

Do you see my point? I made extremely generous assumptions about the experiences of a beautiful woman, and the results still support my argument that even beautiful women are at a great disadvantage when it comes to controlling the approach.

I want to repeat this point. Your arguments may be genuine, but there are a lot of men in the community whose arguments are not. They are hiding behind the view that the world is unfair – that the game is rigged against them – to avoid doing the thing that’s uncomfortable. That’s what this cartoon is about and that’s why I mostly agree with its protagonist, Sarah.

Tido says:

I think this quote encapsulates the solution to this comic strip.

A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.
– Mohandas Gandhi

Francis says:

@ Lee,

Loved all of your explainations. Thank you for opening my eyes. You are right women don’t have control over who approaches them, but we have control over who we approach.

Francis

Paul says:

I did like the explanations but I am not so sure that women do not have some control over who approaches them. Actually, an number of “alpha women” are becoming much more “ballsy” and approaching men but that is a small group overall – not really in their natures.

One thing is for sure, they can absolutely shot guys down and I guess that is their mechanism or their way of approaching. Think about it, if 10 guys approach a woman in an evening, she has total control of who she selects for she is ultimately the selector. Now she may not control the approach per say but thru subtle cues, glances (body language) and proximity she certainly can influence the situation.

Lee says:

Paul,

I agree with you. Women have some control over the approach, but very little. Most of the time, guys approach chicks because they think those chicks are cute, not because they got eye contact or an invitation. I talk to women all the time, but it’s been a few weeks since I approached as a result of an inviting look. Also, just because a chick looks at a guy doesn’t mean he will approach, or even knows how to approach, so at best this behavior changes the numbers a little bit in her favor, but only a little.

High value women don’t approach men because approaching men gives them none of the information they want. When men approach them, they learn a lot about those men. Specifically, they learn something about whether those men are confident and socially adept. The other way, they learn nothing. This is especially true for the most attractive women. Every man they approach will say yes without revealing anything about his social value.

It is also true that beautiful women have nearly total control in choosing which men they say yes to. But saying yes to 1 in 10 men is not much of an advantage, especially when they didn’t select which 10 men approached them (or how quickly they approached them – they could be waiting for hours!). It’s much easier to be even an average looking guy with some skill who can approach women anywhere. If one includes day game, the guy is definitely in the driver’s seat. 1 in 10 is a very achievable objective for a pickup artist and all he needs to be is maybe a 7, not a 9 or a 10.

Paul says:

Good points. I guess I really have a hard time understanding how a guy can have control for I have approached so many women with so little results. I approach and often. Approach Anxiety I have learned to over come to the point where I am pretty numb to all of it so its a keen freedom but also a curse if you do not get dates, particularly with the beautiful women I see in my city. I get blown out alot so I see women having the descriminate choice. I have stopped going out at night to bars and clubs to be honest. Its just too discouraging and its expensive.

To me its like “here he is, ok well he is not my type so I will either not talk to him or just test this guy to see what he is made out of and even if he is funny or charming he is still not my type but good entertainment on the cheap until He-man comes along. ” I am not the biggest or best looking guy, around 5’5 (with boots around 5’7 or so). So I rarely get looks but I confidently proceed to go and pursue. I am not a bad looking guy, just short. Really hard to overcome in bars and clubs and daygame is really no better. Women seem to be in such a hurry and in a rush. They all tell me they have no time to talk.

So the whole thing of a man having control just goes past me.

nonstop says:

@Paul
Don’t take this too personally, but maybe it’s you.

I know a guy that is your height, and not of a muscular build who is an excellent PUA. He uses a little bit of PUA stuff, but he doesn’t “DO” much. He simply “BE”s an attractive man. Confusing, I know, but it might make sense later.

Try something different. Stop thinking like a guy in terms of attraction. Men and women like people who look good, but men prioritize looks over everything else.

Women are naturally attracted to good looking men, but will fall just as fast, if not faster, for a man than can make them FEEL good. It may be hard to accept or believe, but it’s likely nothing physical holding you back, but just your mindset at the moment.

The other thing to think about is if by trying to learn the game, if you’ve de-humanized the interaction. If you are ONLY looking for signs to proceed to the next step in your game, without being interested in her past her looks… she’ll almost be guaranteed to see right through it. It sounds creepy/unrealistic, but I’ve noticed as I’ve changed myself that women have a sort of sixth sense to see through you.

KL says:

Paul, as a fellow shorty (5’5″ and proud) I can confirm what nonstop is saying. Some women certainly do have an irrational preference for men over 6 feet tall (they literally carry a tape measure in their purse), or men with ponytails, or men with French accents, and everyone else is not on their radar. They tend to be relatively unsatisfied women.

As a rule, a woman will always prefer 5’5″ man who can touch her in the right way, give her the right eye contact, flirt with her, and be confident and dominant, to a 6 foot man who doesn’t understand how to touch, tease, flirt or banter with women.

Paul, you said: “Women seem to be in such a hurry and in a rush. They all tell me they have no time to talk.”

This I can totally identify with. The problem here is that you are not grabbing their attention. It can be easy to be overlooked as a short person, but you just have to prevent that from happening.

You should look at this as a logistical issue, not a permanent one. When you see a girl you want to approach, compensate for your height by doing other things that will attract attention to you: raising your voice, keeping that good posture, having solid eye contact, and body language is huge. Slow, calm movements will (1) make you stand out from a crowd of busy rushing people and (2) demonstrate that you are confident and you don’t care if she walks away.

Even walking up to her at the correct angle can make a huge difference. Approach from the front instead of the back, for example.

You also said: “So the whole thing of a man having control just goes past me.”

How do I, as a short man, initiate and maintain control in an interaction? It’s really simple once I understand that “control” in social dynamics has nothing to do with physical size, and everything to do with physical behavior. I take up as much space as I need, I look people directly in the eye when I talk to them, I make sure they can hear me clearly (since I’m short, I may need to cock my head upward for them to hear me), I don’t hesitate to interrupt, change the subject, change the tone of the conversation, touch, smile, gesture, or wink, when I need or want to.

I am willing to walk away at any moment, and I am NOT willing to follow anyone around–once I stop walking, I stand my ground. That is how I keep control of an interaction, and that is how I LEAD the interaction. Once someone is engaged with me in an interaction, they are automatically giving up some authority to hear what I have to say. That’s my opportunity to seize the moment and demonstrate to them that I am a social leader, not a follower and not a sidekick.

Jeff says:

What I have a hard time swallowing is that one should completely change lifestyle and hobbies for something that beautiful women find attractive??? What if one doesn’t find any pleasure in this? How can one be truly happy pretending to like a certain activity simply to attract women? And how can one be truly happy doing the hobbies he likes but definitely does not attract women?

Personally my main problem is not that I’m unable to get dates or approach… I can approach very beautiful women and get dates (obviously very good looks and confidence helps), but once I’m in a date I way too often run out of things to say and stories to tell. I sometimes even catch myself trying to talk about incredibly boring stuff (but stuff I find interesting).

In other words, could I ever really stay myself and attract women at the same time?

Paul says:

@KL

You have sound ideas but I have yet to find women that accept a short man via making her “feel” good about herself. I think the tallness thing makes them feel good and then from there its icing on the cake for the taller guys.

I just really wonder if they like average short guys at all. I rarely see it or have personally seen it.

This whole thing of being willing to walk away never made sense to me. If a chick is not that into you then why would she care if you are wiling to walk away? She will find someone in a heartbeat if she wants. I get really confused here. We are told to pursue, but not pursue. We are told to not show interest but show interest. We are told to approach but do not approach and show interest. We are told to pursue then have the willingness to walk away. This will really spin a guys head especially if he is fighting tooth and nail for attraction in the first place. The we are told to have fun with it all? Escorts are looking better all the time…lol.

Nonstop says:

If you want to pay for sex, that’s your prerogative. As long as you believe that X, Y, Z are preventing you from getting women, then they will.

The difference is that you “know” that these things work, or logically could work… but you don’t BELIEVE that they could work for you.

If height bothers you, go for short women. There are plenty of Asian women that are attractive and average 5’2″ in height, not to mention any other girls of similar height. (My personal preference is Asian :3 ).

I’m willing to bet money that if you try to pickup shorter chicks, another reason will come up why it’s not working. That’s OK, it just means you’re on the right path to getting rid of your limiting beliefs.

I got more women as a poor guy with a crappy car that had lots of fun and made people feel good and comfortable than now with more money and a nice car, but no fun.

I can’t stress enough to stop thinking like a man in terms of attraction.

Jeff says:

Hey Paul, if you’re short go for shorter girls I guess no? There are lots of 5′ cuties out there!

Maybe go to Asia or something! ;) Even here in Vancouver there are lots of very beautiful yet small Asian women. Plus the female:male ratio is amazing and half the guys are gay!! hahahah

KL says:

Paul, you said: “I just really wonder if they like average short guys at all. I rarely see it or have personally seen it.”

A little story: One time I overheard two models talking about whether they prefer short guys or tall guys. During the conversation one of them remarked, “short guys are better in bed.” Sounded pretty good to me, as you might imagine!

You’re right, you rarely see short guys having that much success. The reason is that we short men spend our lives looking up at people, and that can have a terrible effect on your self-confidence and how you relate to other people as “dominant.” But really, everyone has imperfections. A tall guy who’s bald will say “I rarely see bald men having success with women.” A tall guy with a full head of hair, but older, will say “I rarely see older men having success.” Etc, etc.

These objections come from a real place, a real sense of inadequacy. The question you have to ask yourself is this: am I going to make the absolute most of what I have, or am I going to let myself spend the rest of my life feeling inadequate, when I KNOW, deep down, I am not inadequate?

There is not a single man on this earth without imperfections. Not a single one. Successful men are the ones who draw so much attention to their good qualities, nobody even notices their imperfections. Think about it.

“This whole thing of being willing to walk away never made sense to me. If a chick is not that into you then why would she care if you are wiling to walk away?”

Totally hear you. Here’s my take on it. An attractive man is dominant and confident. A dominant/ confident man will walk up to a hot girl and start talking to her. He’s not madly in love, but just curious. He’s also naturally outgoing. He probably talks freely with strangers all the time–that’s part of being dominant and confident. Once he’s started the conversation, if the girl turns out to have a ho-hum personality, or isn’t into him, he has two options: (1) follow her around, try to force her to like him, (2) just say forget it and walk away to the next girl. Which will the dominant man do, and which will the submissive/ weak man do?

Bottom line is that whenever you’re in an unfamiliar situation, you just have to ask yourself, what would a dominant, confident, spontaneous, outcome-independent man do in this situation, and what would a weak, predictable, forgettable man do? That should solve most of your problems.

Nonstop says:

“This whole thing of being willing to walk away never made sense to me. If a chick is not that into you then why would she care if you are wiling to walk away?”

She only cares if you are valuable. If you raise her social status, make her feel good, show her new things, connect with her, etc. then you will be valuable in her eyes and she’ll try harder to be/stay around in your presence. If you are only trying to sleep with her, or your conversation sucks, she’ll be happy to see you go. Otherwise she’s sad to see you go because of how you can make her feeeeeeeeeel good.

Also, the “do but do nots” are how the Game is played. You show interest and she recognizes that but then you take it away. She wonders what she did or did not do to make you lose it and tries to get it back. All this only if you have value.

Paul says:

@Nonstop

Does conversation really matter that much? I am a pretty good conversationalist and can banter pretty well but I just see so many women even in my own social circle with guys that can barely say any humorous, witty or even interesting. They bring these guys to various parties, social events and so forth and its like where they hell did these guys come from? Yet these chicks are all over these guys. Well mostly these guys do look pretty good or have some kind of status. But this whole thing about conversation throughout the community, I just do not get it. Do women really value good conversation? If so they why are they with so many guys that have horrible communication skills and they stay with them? That I do not get either…

Nonstop says:

Conversation is a piece of the puzzle. Just as having confidence, value, and all the other traits are pieces of a bigger puzzle. Conversation is a secondary way to express those things to others. If you know anything about rapport, you’ll understand that you don’t have to say anything to have rapport with someone.

Those guys may not say much because they have other things going for them so they don’t need to rely on one thing so much.

I’m not saying you’re doing anything wrong, but how do you know when you’re doing well with your convo/bantering? Beyond her continuing to talk to you, do you recognize any other signs of interest/disinterest? Pupil dilation is a huge indicator, if you first have a baseline. Try having a tape recorder in your pocket and reviewing it later to judge your speaking ability and content.

I look at it like this: I go into a shop for lunch and talk to the “hired guns”(c:Eric). We say a few words, maybe even crack a joke… but in the end, nothing really gets said, the lasting impression and emotional involvement were minimal. Neither of us really cared and we did not discuss topics of importance to us.

Compared to when I was out talking to my female friend, it started out boring because I was asking typical “how was your trip” questions, but I guided it towards topics she enjoyed talking about, calibrated by her pupils. And of course we talked about sex stuff because it was relevant to her trip and interesting.

I think I posted in in another comment above somewhere, but I did a similar thing with my friends GF I just met. I started the convo with “what’s up” and sat down next to her. Her body language told me she wanted to talk and she lead the topics, but I lead the conversation for a few minutes until others joined us. We talked about NLP/Hypno since it was relevant to her (her BFs interest, and how it affected her)… none of the “what do you do, where are you from”. And later while a group of us were walking back, she started saying something about wanting to torture me and I bantered off that she wouldn’t be any good… somehow she ended up walking next to me chatting the whole way home, leaving her BF following a few steps behind us. And we talked about how she had trouble making female friends, a real conversation. I called her out on stuff too. I don’t know if the second part went well, but I doubt she would spend an extra 15mins talking to me for no reason.

I typed this on my phone so it’s hard to review, but see if you a) really know if the conversation is going well and b) are talking about things that you guys actually want to talk about

Female says:

You just can’t wait that late to tell us! I’ve had that happen plenty of times, but by that point I no longer think of him as anything more than a friend. And telling someone you love them/have feelings for them in such a panicked (or usually drunk) way just doesn’t help. If you’re interested then let her know. You “nice guys” have to speak up sometimes. For what it’s worth, I’m now married to one.

[...] My friend Eric “Disco” of ApproachAnxiety.com posted a great article on his blog: http://approachanxiety.com/?p=1423 [...]

Introveterd says:

And in ten years time Sarah, after all the ‘exciting dudes’ have fuc**ed you and fuc**ed you off, they have had their fun with you then moved on to the next stupid bitch, because they enjoy excitement, which means change and fresh challenges, this includes their women, and you are struggling to make ends meet, facing the ignominy of collecting your single mother benefits, and you’re lonely and complaining to your friends that there are no ‘nice men’ in the world, your looks will have faded, maybe you’ll look back and remember this moment. Remember what a bitch you were, you may even shed a tear. Remember me! Introversion does not equate to cowardly, We may be reserved, We may be a bit dull but we understand the concepts of loyalty and responsibility. Have a nice life Sarah.

Seb says:

Introveterd, you sound very bitter. Even if you are introverted, you can still be a challenge and bring fun to a girl. Get a spine and put your pride/ego/life on the line. Don`t try pretending to be the friend, be honest with the girl.

It is OK to be a WOW guild leader, but also race cars, downhill mtb, surfing, etc. Do something which brings an edge to your life. It is all about balance.

Introveterd says:

Seb you’re right, it was a bitter tirade. I understand what the article is saying, be proactive instead of reactive etc. I object to the notion that, just because a person is introverted they are somehow a ‘cowardly prick’, amongst other things. It’s a sweeping generalisation.

Pedro says:

Eric

Thanks for the article. Maybe there is hope! I just have been through the ringer so many times that it just seems hopeless…thanks

Lee says:

Paul,

First, kudos to you, dude. You haven’t retreated. You haven’t surrendered. I understand your frustration, but I would rather be in your shoes – plugging away at it – than where I was most of my life. Results will come. You have many options. There is literature. There are workshops. You will improve over time. I waited until I was 40 to make changes. As for height, absent all other info, 5’5″ is shorter than what most women would say they want, but it’s not what they actually would accept if everything else clicks. In the end the obstacle to success is not that your height matters, but that you think your height matters. Thinking that changes everything. You have no idea how good women are at detecting that insecurity in everything you do. When you have your game down, height will not matter much. Neil Strauss, one of the world’s best pickup artists is 5’6″. Here is a video of Neil and Jessica Alba – who is also 5’6″ – on the Jimmy Kimmel show. You see that they’re the same height. He’s also not a particularly good looking guy, and he’s bald. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7955135786830905802# All of the real obstacles are in your mind, dude. You will get through this.

Uccellodifuoco says:

Sorry, I think Introvetered has one of the most realistic, not bitter, angles here. You guys put women on a pedestal by visualizing them as ultra-intelligent beings with ultra-sensory capabilities–you give them way too much credit, they are just human and have shortcomings and shallow desires as well that they usually try to camouflage or displace onto innocent people (nice guys/introverted guys, men in general).

It is annoying when I see people brush off the heightism. It is not just in our minds (I’m also 5’5″). You discredit a lifetime of experience with heightism seeing how women respond to and are drawn to taller guys and ostracize shorter guys.

It is a real, not imagined prejudice. Would you tell an African-American that racism is all in his head when he/she is in a racist region, and that it’s only a problem because he or she is making it a problem? See how that works out.

Would you tell someone starving in a 3rd world country that it’s all in their head–they just need to imagine a better situation (or even imagine themselves obtaining food) and it will get better? That’s how ridiculous it sounds when someone tells a shorter person it’s all in their head or in how much importance they give to it. It’s not that we give importance to it–it’s that women give it a great importance.

Tz says:

Uccellodifuoco, I think you’re right. It’s not all in your head. Women in general prefer taller guys if all things are equal. But the fact is, all things aren’t equal. Some shorter guys are better looking than some taller guys. Some shorter guys are more confident. Some shorter guys are more fun. Some shorter guys are better at…, etc, etc. The bottom line is sure, height is something that can automatically catch the attention of a woman, but it’s not the only thing.

Also, what is in your head does play a big role. So if you’re walking around with the constantly repeating thought, “All women reject me because I’m too short,” I guarantee you are going to miss opportunities. You are creating a false reality. I know a guy who is your height, 5’5″ and he does pretty well with the ladies. He’s not rich, not famous, not even really an alpha. And some of the women I’ve seen him with have been very attractive and some have even been a couple inches taller than him. So short height does not automatically disqualify men from dating attractive women. Yes, there are women who will reject you right off the bat, but there’s a plethora of others who won’t. Focus on the positive. I suspect the reality is that there are enough women out there who would date a 5’5″ man that you probably couldn’t meet all of them in a single lifetime. So your mission is to focus on them and forget the heightists. Not only is that a more beneficial attitude, I don’t see any upside or advantage from holding the view that your height is an insurmountable barrier. All it really does is hurt you and hold you back and that’s never a good thing.

Eric Disco says:

Uccellodifuoco, I think you’re right. It’s not all in your head. Women in general prefer taller guys if all things are equal. But the fact is, all things aren’t equal. Some shorter guys are better looking than some taller guys. Some shorter guys are more confident. Some shorter guys are more fun. Some shorter guys are better at…, etc, etc. The bottom line is sure, height is something that can automatically catch the attention of a woman, but it’s not the only thing.

One big difference with height compared to all these other attributes is that height is easily measurable. An ugly face may be just as much of a hinderance, but the guy with the ugly face can lie to himself and think he’s not so bad looking. Height is one of the few, easily-measured attributes that is almost completely objective.

Eric

Cameron says:

Uccellodifuoco,

I really implore you to read Tz’s post again, it has so much to teach you.

I know its easy, I know its easy to play the victim and hard to take responsibility. I love to play the victim.

But where is playing the victim getting you?

Gyan says:

I myself am 5’6 and have struggled. On top of that my voice is very soft and being from a different country I have a thick accent which become even thicker when I am uncomfortable.

Here are few things I have done to improve -

I wear shoes which has 3 inch in sole. It looks as elegant and no one can really tell.

I been working out at the gym which has given me a solid posture. I also took some boxing lessons just to overcome my fear.

I am currently taking 1:1 with Eric and last Saturday I opened cute girls in NYC. Even though they couldn’t hear at first what I mumbled but I was still able to generate attraction.

All I would say Bro is I am seeing it working slowly and gradually as I am learning all this stuff.

Passerby says:

Cameron, I don’t think that Uccellodifuoco is ‘playing the victim’. He has just given a reasoned argument which seems to cover his personal experience. You can read plenty of women’s profiles on internet dating sites in which they state: must be of equal height or taller, sorry. I agree with Introvetered, it really annoys me when people make generalisations about things; you use the word ‘victim’ three times in your post. Maybe you could re read Uccellodifuocos post and see that he is not a victim, just stating facts.
We all have our own preferences as far as members of the opposite sex go, some prefer blondes, brunettes etc. A lot of things about a person can be changed, hair can be dyed, faces pulled, implants planted! A shorter person cannot be stretched.
(This is not an angry post, just making a point!)

Cameron says:

Udicello,

I know he has his reasons! There are reasons why women prefer taller men, no doubt.

There are also lots of reasons why a shorter man can have success with women, like the story Eric posted about a guy who was 5″5 having women fighting over him, or the post above, by Gyan.

I call him a victim because he selects the reasons why women prefer taller men and ignores the ways he could improve and date gorgeous women despite his disadvantage. He also blames women for his lack of success with them. Classic victim behaviour.

“Maybe you could re read Uccellodifuocos post and see that he is not a victim, just stating facts.”

No, your not stating facts, your stating your opinion. And its a valid perspective, its a valid perspective that hes not a victim. But its not a fact. Just like hes not a fact that he is a victim.

But, if you consider that hes playing the victim, then he gets to take responsibility for his lack of success with women, if he admits hes wrong (even though hes not “wrong”) then he has power to change his results, if its all womans fault then hes powerless.

THATS WHY I CALL HIM A VICTIM. To encourage him to label himself as a victim (ego bruising as it may be) so he can take responsibility for his life.

God Bless,

Cameron

ps also, you say that women have preferences for taller men, and I agree, and you also say that these preferences can’t be changed, and thats true, a short men can’t be stretched (although he can walk with better posture and wear platform shoes like Gyan mentioned).

But anyway, look, Id prefer a women who is 5″9, has brown hair and brown eyes and big boobs and is older than me.

But I was in the saddle ranch (yeh the fucking saddle ranch) and I found myself attracted to this girl who was 5″5 at the tallest, of petite build and who was my age or younger.

So I had PREFERENCES for all these things, a girl who is 5″9 etc…..

But when it came down to it, this girl was dressed well, she had a big smile on her face, she was spontaneous, she was “being” great (I couldnt make a post without some Landmark speak :-)

So, because of the things she could change, I discarded my preferences and chose her. (actually i didnt make a conscious choice but thats a different story).

Short men could do the same.

Nonstop says:

I want to add to what Cameron is saying.

Everyone has idea of what they want. However, there is often a disparity between what we think we want and what we’re attracted to.

Saying “she’s not my type” or “I’m not her type” is another form of excuse. You don’t know each other well enough to make that decision, you’re just scared so you make assumptions and pre-disqualify yourself. I made this mistake recently, thought a girl was all that, more exciting than me, etc… then I actually talked to her and found out that I was having a lot more fun than her.

Don’t make assumptions, don’t hold things so set in stone. People change all the time.

Tz says:

The study below found that women (and men) often had no idea themselves who they would be attracted to. Although they were asked about their ideal match, they found themselves attracted to people who did not meet those specifications.

The authors concluded: “Furthermore, participants’ ideal preferences, assessed before the speed-dating event, failed to predict what inspired their actual desire at the event…Even regarding such a consequential aspect of mental life as romantic-partner preferences, people may lack introspective awareness of what influences their judgments and behavior.”

Here’s a link if you want to read the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18211175

Cameron says:

“Even regarding such a consequential aspect of mental life as romantic-partner preferences, people may lack introspective awareness of what influences their judgments and behavior.”

They dont know their ass from a whole in the ground! :-)

Lee says:

I previously posted a link to a TV appearance of Neil Strauss, which clearly shows he is 5’6″. Here is a link to a video of Jeremy Soul, also one of the top pickup artists in the world and just under 5’7″. Guys, if height were a strong explanatory factor, you wouldn’t see this many smaller men among the ranks of the top PUAs. Yes, I get it, some of you are 5’5″ or even 5’3″. It’s a disadvantage, for sure, but if it were a terminal disadvantage, the guys at the very top would all be 6’1″ or taller, and they are NOT! That’s a fact, Jack.

Lee says:

On the US olympic swim team, Cullen Jones is 6’5″, Ian Crocker is 6’5″, Michael Phelps is 6’4″, Nathan Adrien is 6’6″, Matt Greavers is 6’8″… do you get it? When height really matters, there is no room for the little guy. Why do we see such a wide dispersion of heights among PUAs? Because the people at the top are differentiated by skill, not height. That is science.

KL says:

I see limiting beliefs about height are alive and well. Here is my final plea on this issue… for now anyway (I will remind everyone that I am 5’5″):

Ask countless women “what do you want in a man?”

The response will be “blah blah blah… a NICE guy”

Now, what do we all know women do NOT want? What are they NOT turned on by? What are they NOT attracted to? That’s right: NICE GUYS!

One of the great things about the whole pickup community/ phenomenon is that it allows us men to speak honestly and frankly to each other about what women REALLY want, as opposed to asking women themselves and getting the kind of milquetoast, useless BS like the above example. It allows us to get past the socially-conditioned nonsense that women SAY and focus on what women DO (no pun intended).

Of course a woman will say “I prefer tall men” just like I *prefer* shameless porn stars!

Does that mean I will NEVER be attracted to another kind of girl? NO. Does that mean a woman will NEVER be attracted to another kind of man? No. But that non-shameless non-porn girl should have other attractive qualities to me. In the same way, the non-tall man should have other attractive qualities, like confidence, spontaneity, flirting skills, etc.

On that note, all the “they don’t like me cuz I’m short” people should ask themselves these questions: Are you super-confident talking with strangers? Do you strike up conversations with pretty girls (or at least try) with no hesitation? Are you comfortable in your own skin? Are you spontaneous, fun, playful and social? Do you feel like a sexy beast? Do you even know what that feeling feels like? If a woman was blindfolded and could only interact with you through talking, would she be impressed with your flirting and banter?

If you must honestly say no to any of those questions, then you cannot honestly say “they don’t like me cuz I’m short.”

Tim says:

I am shorter in stature myself, about 5’7 or so. This is a very good discussion for it is never given any serious banter in many of the PUA forums. Like it was said above, it is considered somekind of odd excuse which it is not. I love the line about telling a black guy that all the racism that existed (and still does to some minor effect) is in his head.

Height is a major dilemma in the dating world. Any imperfection really is. Why? Well it is not considered a modern “want.” Chicks are programmed to want taller men. The tall guy is always the hero, Cary Grants “tall, dark and handsome” thing. Its Hollywood and chicks are very easily swayed. Its the leadership thing. I am not a big fan of alot of evolutionary science or the way it is taught to us that we are creatures or our DNA. It might be valid in some areas but tastes and preferences and societal norms are more convincing. It is all based on need, value and ultimately want. I am in the advertising world and we create wants. Do women really need $300 shoes? No but we create the want. Do women really need a 6’2 hunk? No but its a want created as a perceived uber value. If you know about Maslows heirarchy if basic needs are met than one can try to find self actualization. American women are very spoiled. They have all their needs met. Its a sea of want. So how do we market? We go after what they want or create a want…Chicks are suckers for wants. Sorry its true.

Sex symbols in the 15th and 16th century were “Rubenesque” – they were fat chicks (sorry but true). Why? Well back then food was more scare and the only fat people were rich. People found fat to be sexy for it was a perceived value. There were tons of chicks running around that were thin as hell but the fat or chubby chicks were considered sexy due to their being “different” and “unique.” Just view any painting from that area. The ironic thing was the the wealthy ate white bread and white starches while peasants ate whole grains. Talk about reversal of fortune.

The point here is that height and the dominance that it exerts is a perceived value and modern want. It is not a need, it is a want. So the name of the game is to create something for yourself that women want. For chicks that dig musicians you can play in a band, for chicks that dig money sell stocks or get an MBA, for chicks that bad boy adventures get a motorcycle. This is actually a form or leadership. You lead with your talent and they follow. Its damn hard, I know I struggle but its a bit of a success path. Try it.

What Lee says about the swimmers is dead on. They need taller guys to swim. Its all about arm span and mass against water. Absolute skill. Now are these same guys needed to play guitar or drums for a band? Or fight a war? No, actually a 6’8 guitar player looks damn goofy and their posture is almost to the point of Big Bird – a 6’8 drummer is just to damn tall to play for most sets. A 6’4 soldier is actually a liability – why? well they are a bigger target and as a pilot they have trouble fitting in cockpits. Audie Murphy was the most declarated sharp shooter in WWII and he was about 5’4. No one could catch or see him. Had 30 something German kills. Interesting stuff.

Cameron says:

“Like it was said above, it is considered somekind of odd excuse which it is not.”

It is an excuse! IT IS AN EXCUSE!

Lee says:

Tim, I think you missed my point. My point is that when height really matters, we don’t see little guys at the top at all. There are no little guys on the US swim team. The reason we see smaller men among the ranks of the top PUAs is that height is far less important that skill. Neil Strauss and Jeremy Soul are shorter guys, but they’re two of the world’s best pickup artists. The many negative experiences of shorter men are not inconsistent with the successes of shorter men among the top pickup artists. No one is saying that height is not important. What we’re saying is that height and most other physical attributes are subordinate to skill. The best guys have skill that overcomes all of their natural disadvantages.

Tim says:

@Cameron

No it is not just an excuse. It is real. If you understand that it is real, then it is easier to fix. It’s dishonest to say it is an excuse and immature. If a fear is real to a person, then it is real. It is the instructor/coach or professionals job to help them overcome that fear.

Would you tell a cancer patient that there cancer is not real? No because it is measured and tangible…

Would you tell a person with diabetes that “oh that sugar will not hurt you its in your head”…no because its tangible and measured…

Would you tell a black person that racism does not exist? No…that would be considered a unkind thing to do….no again, its real, tangible and measurable…

so what makes heightism any different? Its not. Its real (women prefer taller men based on some need and want), its tangible and measured (look at match.com personals, rejection by women due to height,ect)…

So whats you point Cameron?

Cameron says:

Tim, have you been listening to what I’m saying?

I acknowledge that some guys are shorter than other guys. And I acknowledge that women, in general prefer taller guys.

But it’s still an excuse.

It’s an excuse because some shorter men are out there, having a lot of success with women and taking responsibility for their lives. They say “Oh well! I’m only 5″5 but I’ll be damned if I let it hold me back!” and they dont. They are out their killing.

But some shorter men are only focusing on the justifications why they “cant” have success, and because they deny, repress and ignore all the reasons why a shorter man can have success they become victims. They start blaming.

Shorter men have absolutely no control over their height (apart from wearing platform shoes and standing with good posture) but they do have absolute control over their mindset, over the context through which they see the world.

Thats why they are victims.

Because they CHOOSE to be.

Did I mention that I once dated a 41 yr old woman who I met through match? Her profile said she wanted men aged 30-50. I’m 24.

Also, with regards to your starving people/ cancer analogy.

Their is one HUGE difference between the scenarios we talk about.

Whats the one thing that women respond to? Confidence. Women respond to a confident man. Food doesnt gravititate towards happy africans. Cancer doesnt care if your depressed or not (actually it does, but thats a different story).

But shorter men can still get great jobs, they can still work out, they can still be in great shape, they can still stand straight, they can still banter and kino and connect.

And women can see when a man has “game”, when hes confident, when hes loving his life, and they will react to him WHETHER HES TALL OR NOT.

God Bless,

Cameron

Lee says:

Cameron, what you’re saying is dead on. But these guys prefer to fight the straw man – the argument that height doesn’t matter at all. No one here is actually saying that. Everyone here acknowledges that without skill, height matters, and may even matter a lot. What the success of shorter men shows is that height is completely subordinate to skill.

lin says:

A very good topic. But instead of focusing on height, work with what you got.

Example:

Poor Mexican guy, worked his way up from working in a deli to becoming one of the top jockey`s in the world. I don`t think he let height stand is his way. Most jockey`s are under 5,8, on average 5,3 to 5,5. He worked hard with what he got.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57052/lookin-at-lucky-gets-redemption-in-preakness
http://www.fanhouse.com/2010/05/15/deli-owner-delights-in-martin-garcias-preakness-victory/

Another real life example on how looks (height) don`t matter anything:

Supermodel Rosie Huntington-Whiteley dating:

Tyrone Wood (Short, not good looking guy ) 2 years
Oliver Martinez (Hunk, typical latin/model looks)
Jason Statham (Buff, MA, a beast)

Regarding social status, etc: Equal

Cameron says:

Wow! So one of the worlds most beautiful women dated a short guy!

So short guys can date ANY WOMEN!!

Great Job Lin!

lin says:

Are you trying to be sarcastic, Cameron?

It just shows that a women can have a very varied span of men she dates.

Cameron says:

No, I’m not being sarcastic. I mean literally short guys can date any women. Like the guy dating the supermodel that you mentioned.

lin says:

Cool, sorry for accusing you of being sarcastic. Yeah, it really shows that you can date and get hot women. It is a matter of letting go of your limiting beliefs.

Lin

Cameron says:

No problem Lin, thanks.

I agree that it is a matter of letting go of your limiting beliefs.

Julian says:

The anti-intellectual bias of the woman in the cartoon is understandable because chicks in general are not too interested in intellectual matters for their own sake, but only for practical means. Intellectualism is almost purely a masculine activity. Now, we should understand it is not prized by women, and in American society in general, but does not mean its not of value. It is of extreme value. The video games I disagree with, I think they are a waste of time, and should be limited since they only provide virtual entertainment, no real lasting gain, atleast comparable to some other activities.
The point I am trying to make is we need to put an image to women portraying the qualities they want, but not getting rid of qualities that are good in themselves but are not prized or even looked down upon by women. Who made them the arbiters of what is time well spent? Do what you need to do to live your best life, balanced, but don’t stop doing things because women won’t like it. Its better to not display those traits then get rid of them.

A man who knows nothing about the world, not interested in politics, current affairs, important books, literature, religion, theology, or numerous other subjects is not a real man. He lives a superficial and trivial life, a prison to the current environment he lives in. He has no life of the mind.

A real man is balanced in everything, and that includes intellectual activities as well. Don’t forget all the other aspects of life that others have, but have even more than them. Be a complete man in every respect, not just make your life chasing chicks and have no brain that thinking about movies, and sports and chicks.

Do what others do, but do more, but don’t throw pearls before swine. Appeal to people’s interests. Think with cunning.

Women are simple creatures, give them what they want but don’t let them determine who you are. A man who has only the qualities a woman wants and nothing more is a loser except in one regard.

Steve says:

Aww, major burn!!

Zhelyazko says:

Yeah… But it is so damn difficult to be out there and practicing…

Does it ever get easier ? Because it is too difficult to keep it up as it is now (takes tremendous effort to open a single girl and some days I even can’t do that).

Stephen says:

what you want is never easy…you just got to start small

Cameron says:

Impossibly complicated name:

Yes, it gets much easier. But from the way your talking it sounds like your doing too much. I’m going to assume your talking about approaching directly for the purposes of this post.

Firstly, lets first consider that approaching directly is REALLY HARD, especially a cold daytime approach. Women aren’t expecting to be approached when their out shopping etc and it doesn’t always work too well to be honest. Maybe when your as good as BradP or Glenn or some other zen master pua ninja you can pull off daytime approaches with ease but would you play football and expect to be as good as Lionel Messi on the first day? Would you pick up a dumbell and expect to be as ripped as Arnie straight away? I think not.

So, your doing too much. So, what to do instead?

Like Stephen says its better to start small and work your way up.

Have you downloaded Erics ebook yet? Its pretty cool because its filled with examples that you can do if your not at the level of confidence to approach directly,

Like asking her for the time
Then asking her for the time and making a joke……
and so on.

Or, if you want, then fuck the idea of approaching directly and simply get out the house everyday with the goal of being social, its pretty easy to live your life basically in your house apart from going to work etc.

Fuck living in a prison (even if its a prison with a lot of amenities).

So go to a restaurant or cafe Everyday. You’ll be forced to interact with people, and these people ARE PAID TO BE NICE TO YOU! So even if she thinks your a complete creep shes still gotta talk to you! Winning!

This is a nice safe environment to increase your self-expressiveness and confidence around people. Period.

Aliveinboston says:

The reason why the “nice guy” tells the girl she’s “intelligent and cute when he really thinks she’s neurotic and not intelligent” is because the truth will definitely not get him anywhere.

David says:

“I’m sorry if I consider the future of our species to be more important than your pathetic lust for a pure, innocent virgin”

What’s that all about?

Cameron says:

David, when I read that line I too reacted against it but then I realised that its because I really wanted to have sex with a pure, innocent virgin and dominate. ravage her silly and I was in some way ashamed of it.

I have since then realised that theres nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with a young virgin and I don’t really care if people think its pathetic or not either.

Mickey says:

I probably would have thrown a drink in her face just like the guy she’s sleeping with would have done.

Lee says:

@Mickey

You’re missing the point, Mickey. The author of this cartoon is on the girl’s side. She’s speaking the truth, a truth that John needs to hear, a truth there would be no need to tell to the strong aggressive men she normally dates.

–Lee

Mickey says:

@Lee

I doubt it. If the guy in the cartoon would have thrown a drink in her face, I don’t think she would have respected him any more for finally growing a backbone.

Lee says:

@Mickey

Why would he want to throw a drink in her face? She’s right.

–Lee

Justin says:

How could he throw a drink in her face without any arms? RAHAHA!

Mickey says:

@Lee:

Women hate to be generalized, right?

How about the fact that Sara generalizes that every guy who’s an “intellectual” is using it as a front in an attempt to get laid?

Or her idea that John’s being gutless makes him a selfish prick?

Isn’t her generalizing just as wrong?

Even if you accept the proposition that John didn’t have enough nerve to tell Sara how he really felt about her, that’s a long stretch to automatically assume that there is always an ulterior motive.

If she likes savage assholes like she says, then the savage asshole thing to do would be to throw a drink in her face (just like the savage asshole she’s sleeping with).

Sorry, I just don’t buy it.

P.S. This puts the lie to the idea that women like soft, sensitive guys, doesn’t it?

MrAntiquity says:

@Lee/Mickey–

Interesting–that cartoon and your comments…about 12 years ago there was this girl–very close friend of mine who I liked but had no idea what to do about it. After about a year I managed to mumble something about how I liked her (hardly making a move–more like a pained dog). I thought she would be either flattered and reject me, or maybe say that she felt the same way. Her response?

‘And all this time I trusted you!!’

I had no idea what that meant. I hated her for it, though–really, really hated her for it. I understand a bit more now–and that cartoon illustrates it pretty well. At the same time, I think that in many ways that girl, and Sara in this cartoon, are both more than a little sociopathic. Mickey’s right about Sara’s overgeneralization–and while there’s a lot of merit to what she’s saying in that cartoon, it’s a completely overgeneralized–and misanthropic–view of nicer guys, intellectual guys, etc. There are some gems in what she says–but she’s also not worth going near with a 10 foot pole.

Eric Disco says:

@Mickey, MrAntiquity, and Lee,

You guys all make some good points. The last frame of this comic to me is not truly the girl interacting with the guy, but an alternate reality where the guy gets to find out the truth about himself, how she feels and why women aren’t attracted to him.

His overwhelming emotional state is not noble. Society builds up this idea of an admission of love like his as something precious and beautiful when in reality it is borne of weakness, based on years of inaction and an unwillingness (or inability) to change ones self.

In the last panel she is completely forthright about his weakness and her natural lack of attraction for weakness. Her feelings are not a choice for her. The way we feel is not a choice for any of us. But the long climb in cultivating strength rather than weakness is a choice.

Eric

Cameron says:

Totally disagree with Mickey and MrAntiquity.

Yes, Sarah is making generalisations, and they aren’t 100% true all of the time.

But they are true most (even almost all) of the time.

Guys resorting to intellectualism while secretly wishing they were “the jocks” who were banging all the chicks? (or at least some of the chicks).

This describes almost every intellectual I know.

Pretending to be nice to girls while scheming about fucking them………I have done this myself (many times) I’m embarrassed to admit….its save to say men are almost always scheming about fucking her.

And Mickey,

your missing the point. The point is not that now is the time for John to become a real man. The point is that its too fucking late for him. He had the past year, he took no chances, took no risks.

Yes its harsh but thats life, you do the workout you get the body, you have the degree you get the job, you act like a pussy you get……nothing.

MrAntiquity:

Do you see how you did in fact betray her trust? It wasnt her fault you were too spineless to make a move.

Grow some balls dude and stop blaming women for rejecting you. Its your fault when they reject you. Its really always your fault.

Lee says:

@MrAntiquity

What’s wrong with Sara? Why wouldn’t you touch her with a ten foot pole? Other than being the vehicle by which John finally gets a woman’s opinion as to why he is not attractive to women, what do you think Sara’s done wrong?

–Lee

Derrick says:

Personally, I wish every girl I tried that BS with would have said this to me. I probably would have changed things a lot earlier if they had. I still struggle, painfully, but this cartoon is 100% on point. Girls will never say anything like in this cartoon, but you know they feel this subconsciously on some level, and on some level so does every guy. Most of us just don’t realize it.

Mickey says:

@Cameron:

What exactly does being “intellectual” really mean? Is it:
1) Being a “sensitive” artist?
2) Being a poet?
3) Pursuing higher education?

It seems relative to me.

Next, if women do not like guys who use their intellectualism to hide the ulterior motive of getting a screw, is it that much different than joining the football team to get cheerleaders? Or driving around with a new Mercedes or BMW with the motive of “getting the girl”? Wouldn’t that be just as ulterior?

I think that no matter what form it takes, this still begs the bigger question of why a guy has to rely on his assets or what he does in order to get the girl instead of relying on WHO he is. Take him or leave him, right?

That said, I do agree with everyone’s general consensus that women do not cowardice in a guy.

Mickey says:

@Cameron:

What exactly does being “intellectual” really mean? Is it:
1) Being a “sensitive” artist?
2) Being a poet?
3) Pursuing higher education?

It seems relative to me.

Next, if women do not like guys who use their intellectualism to hide the ulterior motive of getting a screw, is it that much different than joining the football team to get cheerleaders? Or driving around with a new Mercedes or BMW? Or joining a band to get some groupies? Wouldn’t these all have the same ulterior motive to “get the girl”?

I think that no matter what form it takes, this still begs the bigger question of why a guy has to rely on his assets or what he does in order to get the girl instead of relying on WHO he is. Take him or leave him, right?

That said, I do agree with everyone’s general consensus that women do not like cowardice in a guy.

P.S. Sorry for the repeat post. I hit “submit” before I was ready.

Cameron says:

Being intellectual means someone who is afraid of other human beings and has decided to distance himself from them as a way of avoiding the domination of realising he isn’t as cool as everyone else, that he is in fact strange and inferior.

No the intellectual who pretends to love books because he secretly wants to bang hot chicks is no worse than other guys , but hes certainly no better.

as for your argument that that why a guy should be able to rely on his personality rather than his assets…….lol you sound so fucking naive dude, why dont you find yourself a nice ugly fat girl and date her because of her wonderful personality? Or is it that secretly your just as superficial as everyone else?

You know there’s this mediocre looking girl at work who really fancies me and has tried to kiss me a couple of times, have i kissed her to make her feel better? Nope and im not going too either.

Why should I?

Lee says:

@Mickey

Women dislike men who use subterfuge of any kind. It’s weak. If I take girls for rides in my Ferrari but never make a move because I’m afraid of rejection, it is very unlikely that my Ferrari will compensate for my fear. On the other hand, an intellectual who takes chances and is not afraid to make his intentions known is very attractive to women.

Women love smart men. Why shouldn’t they? Intelligence is highly correlated with evolutionary success. Why wouldn’t nature give women the ability to detect it? There was a recent article in Slate – Why Are Smart People Usually Ugly? – that disproved the title’s fallacy and talked about a small positive correlation between looks and intelligence, which is another way of saying that even people who are not intelligent are attracted to the intelligent. Here it is:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2012/01/are_smart_people_ugly_the_explainer_s_2011_question_of_the_year_.html

The problem with the “intellectual” in the cartoon – in fact, we don’t know if he’s a thinker at all – is that he is using his self perceived special status as an excuse not to take action. I’ve been there. When I was young, there were girls I hung out with for years without telling them I was attracted. It was pathetic. I told myself all sorts of stories. The world didn’t understand me. I was too smart for the average woman. One day they’d see what a mistake they’d made. And the truth, all along was that I was just too weak and too scared to take action.

–Lee

MrAntiquity says:

@Cameron–

To be honest, it’s a bit hard to take you seriously because of this:

‘Being intellectual means someone who is afraid of other human beings and has decided to distance himself from them as a way of avoiding the domination of realising he isn’t as cool as everyone else, that he is in fact strange and inferior.

No the intellectual who pretends to love books because he secretly wants to bang hot chicks is no worse than other guys , but hes certainly no better.’

I mean…er…what?

And to be honest–you’re actually right in terms of what happened between me and that girl 10 years ago. But that was also 10 years ago. And a lot of it was my fault–yes. But she had lots of issues too.

@Lee–

I don’t like Sara because while she is right–in part–about this guy (who really is a pathetic loser), she also draws lots of false attributions which really hold little basis in reality. She equates ‘intellectual’ with spineless, calculating, pathetic, etc–and she places no value on them. She doesn’t unify sex with any potentially interesting attributes that guys might have to offer in addition to sexuality…. this PARTICULAR guy in the cartoon is, unfortunately, completely asexual and she’s right to call him on it. But there’s a lot that she doesn’t understand as well. I know a ton of ‘intellectual’ guys who women are attracted to–in large part–BECAUSE they’re interesting, and knowledgable, and adventurous, and can educate the girl. I myself have dated several who were attracted to me for those reasons.

This girl is rabidly anti-intellectual–she can’t meld a guy’s mind with sexuality. Those are some reasons why I don’t respect her–although again, she DOES offer some important advice for that particular character.

Cameron says:

Mr Antiquity,

‘Being intellectual means someone who is afraid of other human beings and has decided to distance himself from them as a way of avoiding the domination of realising he isn’t as cool as everyone else, that he is in fact strange and inferior.”

This is an (gross) generalisation and is a bit of a silly statement on my part. I take it back.

“No the intellectual who pretends to love books because he secretly wants to bang hot chicks is no worse than other guys , but hes certainly no better.”

This makes perfect sense (at least to me) and I stand by this statement 100%.

If I may offer my opinion on your comment directed at Lee:

My interpretation of Saras comments is that she doesnt hate intellectuals generally, she just hates cowardly men who are afraid to express their emotions.

Her statements about intellectuals aren’t necessarily meant to refer to intellectuals as a whole, only to John.

Or if they are aimed at intellectuals she means specifically those intellectuals who are afraid of “putting themselves out there” and are basically weak bitter men who do nothing while jealously watching “dumb” guys date the women they secretly want (but rationalise they dont want, that the women are shallow or bad for dating the “savage” men).

My interpretation is that Sara would have nothing against dating an intellectual who possessed the qualities she desires in a mate.

I mean…er…what?

MrAntiquity says:

@Cameron–

OK. I was interpreting it to mean that intellectuals are, essentially, phony. Which isn’t true. But yeah–people who ARE phony are, indeed, worthy of scorn, so I agree with you there.

But I do feel like Sara is deriding a whole class of people based on one guy who is, sadly, unable to voice his feelings or act on them.

Of course….for crying out loud SHE’S A STICK FIGURE!!! :)

Cameron says:

I know MrAntiquity, she is a stick figure…..

but theres so much too this little diagram, I certainly have seen myself in John, and I know a lot of guys have too (not that half of them would be willing to admit it),

for me it comes down to blaming Sara versus taking responsibility.

I choose to take responsibility.

Carl888 says:

This cartoon is funny and cruel. I reread it about every month to keep it in mind. But one thing I don’t quite agree with is this. Sara says she loves to fight with her boyfriends because it shows her that they are not afraid to voice their opinion about her. The lesson John should take away here is that he should begin telling an eventual girlfriend frankly what he thinks about her, but not aim to fight with them more often. In a relationship fighting is mostly useless. It only happens when you’re not in control of the power dynamic.

Lee says:

@Carl888

I completely agree. A real man has no reason to fight. I can see a woman throwing a tantrum to test a man’s response, even doing it without knowing why she’s doing it. But the proper response to tantrums is not yelling. A real man would shake his head, smile, and say something like “I am leaving.” No explanations. After a few of these, the tantrums would stop.

–Lee

blono says:

Sara’s rant at the end doesn’t really convey much to me. It brings up a bunch of statements about John, and gradually becomes more generalized and insulting, tossing in some unproven philosophical platitudes and assumptions. Many of her statements seem to be based on information that is not supplied, or which is only implied, leaving the reader to draw their own conclusions(I won’t say any more along that line…). If I were to base my judgement here on the most similar situations I’ve seen previously(not always a very good idea, depends on a lot of stuff) I’d come to one of two conclusions

1. John is a coward and also a very unusual, rare sort of human being. I’ve only seen people who are like that a couple times in my life.

2. Sara is just as selfish as she accuses John of being, anti-intellectual, and displays some very strong stereotyping behavior. And based of of what she says about her self, also an unusual sort of human being that I’ve only seen a few times in my life.

These are not exclusive.

I’m still in the dark as to what the point of this comic is, if it has one.

Crebral says:

The point is to be a man blono, stop being overly intellectual as a way of not “getting it”. Take responsibility for your life.

And as for your other statements:

1 Your saying its very rare for men to be cowardly in their dealings with woman? I have to say that is completely false. I have many times seen beautiful women, scantily dressed (almost) literally crying out to be approached with no man willing to pluck up the meagre courage to take a few steps in their direction and try and chat them up.

Apart from me of course. :-)

2 Yes Sara is selfish, but she acknowledges and owns her selfishness, shes authentic about it. John has a false persona of “niceness” and “sweetness” that hides what a disgusting little pile of insecurities and complexes he is, constantly complaining that the world doesnt arrange itself to make him happy.

And finally, if you think women dont love drama, emotion and passion. Then you know absolutely nothing about women.

blono says:

The comic, IMO, doesn’t do a very good job of presenting that point.

1. No, I’m certainly not saying that. I’m saying that it’s a rare man who both acts like John does in the comic, AND has all the qualities that Sara says John has.

2. That does little to make it better. And judging solely on the content of the comic, we have only Sara’s word that John actually IS this horrible, evil person. Like I said earlier, I’ve known guys like that literally only twice in my life. I’ve known guys who were by all appearances creepy basement dwellers, and guys who seemed to be cowardly nice guys, but rarely did the two intersect.

I could give you a counterexample, but I suspect that this isn’t supposed to be taken in a strictly literal sense, so I’ll just go ahead and say I more or less agree with you. I was saying that in general, very few girls actually like fighting with their boyfriends, or actually like assholes that they know to be assholes.

Something I didn’t really mention in my prior post, that actually really bugged me about this comic. Based solely on Sara’s statement about John(and ignoring for the moment all other information presented here), of “studying a wide range of knowledge that is largely supplied and accepted by previous social inadequates”, is likely more beneficial to others than “impregnating women and thus contributing to the continuation of the human race”. But it’s portrayed, judging by the language used, and being put with a bunch of negative stuff, as a bad thing.

Crebral says:

You know you really hate the comment blono because John is you.

blono says:

Your statement takes as an implicit assumption the idea that I am john, as it is not possible to know something without that something being true. That assumption is, to the best of my knowledge, false. I’m going to assume that you don’t literally mean that I am the character in the comic, or even any real life analogue of him. Prior experience with similar statements leads me to believe the most likely meaning of your statement is that I either see myself in John, or that I am a person who possesses many or all of the characteristics that John is portrayed as having in the comic. Now, it is my previously stated opinion that most of the things Sara says about John are unsubstantiated, and at odds with his behavior in the comic, but I also suspect, due to the form of the comic, that “authorial intent” is that all those things are true. Now, if that’s your claim, then based on my own memories, such as I recognize them, I can safely say that I am not very similar to him. To some extent I see/saw myself in him, in as much as he looks like trying to be nice to people through the first few panels, although authorial intent seems to be that he is actually a nefarious person, which I at least hope I’m not.

Back when I actually thought there would be some net benefit to “relationships” with people in any romantic sense, I tried talking to them with probably similar language, although the times I did it, I did so very soon after meeting them, as opposed to waiting years. These days I don’t see any net benefits to such a relationship, either for me, or the other party(unless they were completely using me, which seems fairly uncommon). Enumerating all the differences between him and me would take up a ton of space and I won’t bore you with it when I’ve already written a fair chunk, and I don’t have any reason to believe that you’ll actually take my word on any of this. If you ask me to, I will.

And the only comment in there I hated was the one I mentioned in my prior post.

Crebral says:

If you really have no interest in getting a girlfriend blono, then why were you visiting this site?

blono says:

I saw a link on another site that only had the name “approach anxiety”, and no description. I assumed it was a website for helping deal with anxiety issues, which is a problem I certainly have. After I got here I realized the site’s nature a few moments later, but found some interesting things, and a couple things that bugged me. In particular, the main thing that brought me to comment was the anti-nice-guy views that seem, IMO, to be widely present here. I’ve seen these views come up a few times before, but never really talked with the people who had them, because most of the websites presenting them seemed to either not be open for comments, or were hostile to any dissenting views. I looked at a few comments here, noticed that dissenting comments appeared and were often responded to in a, IMO, reasonable manner. So I gave it a shot and put up a couple comments, hoping to elicit some info on why people think there’s something wrong with trying to be nice.

I’m not *entirely* uninterested in getting a girlfriend. I just think that the probable costs(and I mean this mainly in terms of overall unhappiness/pain vs. happiness/pleasure) of doing so, based on my previous experiences with girlfriends, would be much greater than any benefits it would bring to either of us. I wouldn’t be averse to brief “hookups” either, but I’ve only rarely seen those in the wild, and have little idea as to how risky they actually are socially, legally, etc, how much time and money are usually involved, or what the costs and benefits for the other party are. So there is some interest, but I generally try to ignore it since I think there are both more productive uses of my time, and that it would not likely be ethically justifiable for me to enter into a relationship with another person.

Crebral says:

Ultimately, theres two way of listening.

1) You look at peoples arguments and try and prove them wrong
publically in an effort to prove how smart you are and convince yourself of your own superiority.

You generalise, intentionally misinterpret the other sides arguments and pounce on their “straw men” in a blind and desperate attempt to win the argument.

I have no interest in this kind of listening.

2) You actually listen and try and understand their point of view (while acknowledging the weaknesses in their arguments privately). You take a hard look at yourself and think about what you could learn from them.

You avoid rationalisations that make you feel better.

Its up to you to make that choice.

Lee says:

@Crebral

So well said. I can also pick apart Sarah’s narrative but that’s not the point. The writer is allowed to be heavy handed in trying to make you see things from Sarah’s perspective. Here is a synopsis of Sarah’s points (without the heavy handedness):

1) Men who don’t have the balls to make themselves vulnerable by facing rejection are not attractive to women.

2) Women prefer men who take those risks, even if taking risks is sometimes associated with other types of behavior that are not as desirable (such as being a bit of an asshole

3) Men who are afraid to make themselves vulnerable by taking risk often rationalize their behavior by blaming society for ostracizing intellectuals. Often, this is not because they are true intellectuals, but because they hide their fear in pursuits where failure is impossible to detect.

4) It is patronizing to women when men treat them as if the choices they are making are obviously wrong and if they just knew better they would wind up with someone who is better for them. Yes, this happens, but the opposite also happens: women decide to be with men who are more capable of hurting them because these men are more alive and more interesting.

Can anyone truly disagree with these points?

–Lee

dave says:

Lee – I have been reading so many of your articles, just trying to put myself in your shoes to find the right point of view. Men who
have the balls to make themselves vulnerable for rejection DO get rejected. These guys then have to be the guys whom appear capable of hurting women so they can appear alive and interesting? an, what an awful game. You must be really good at this!

Lee says:

@dave

I think you’re missing my point. Men who have a strong sense of self take bigger chances and are more attractive to women. Those men also tend to be less accommodating, less compromising, and unlikely to accept something less than they feel they deserve. Is that bad? I don’t think so. I think everyone – men and women – should be honest about what they need so when they finally do find that special person, both parties know that it’s not a matter of compromise or convenience. Women are not attracted to men who are incapable of taking action for their own happiness. They are less worried about the hurt they may experience when a man decides to move on. I think this is perfectly rational.

blono says:

@Crebral: This seems to me to be a false choice. There are many ways of arguing. One can, for example, make a sincere attempt to understand the other’s arguments and what one can learn from them, while, at the same time, pointing out what you see as incorrect. This is what I try to do, even if I am not sure I succeed all the time, because I think it leads to a fuller understanding of other’s arguments. Simply shutting up about anything you disagree with often actually leads to misconceptions, as oftentimes the other person has very good reasons for their views that you are not aware of, or you can have good reasons for your views that they are not aware of. Believe it or not, I actually do change my views due to arguments I’ve had on the internet, and frequently admit when I am wrong.

If I’ve misinterpreted your argument at any point, then tell me how I have, so I can fix that mistake. I’ve mentioned several of the assumptions that I was working with, although that was certainly not an exhaustive list of them, just the ones I thought warranted listing for clarity.

@Lee I’m sure *someone* can disagree with those points, but it’s not going to be me, unless you’re expecting me to take things in an entirely literal sense, which I don’t think you are. There’s some specific supporting assertions made in the comic that imply ideas I strongly disagree with, but it is what it is, and like you said, it serves little purpose trying to pick the narrative apart, unless you’re one of those people who thinks a failure to disagree is agreement.

There’s one more general point that I view the comic as implying though, which is the idea that being nice means that one is a bad person, with some evil ulterior motives. Not only do I disagree with that, but I think adopting such a viewpoint is actually harmful.

Crebral says:

“There’s one more general point that I view the comic as implying though, which is the idea that being nice means that one is a bad person, with some evil ulterior motives. Not only do I disagree with that, but I think adopting such a viewpoint is actually harmful.”

Just as long as you acknowledge that this is something you infer from the comic.

That is neither stated explicitly nor (in my interpretation) deliberately implied.

Crebral says:

Oh and thanks for the support Lee. :-)

Coif says:

You know something? I am totally the guy in the comic, but I have zero expectations of anything like marriage. I also barely process language and am hypersensitive and you know something else? I am totally attracted to bad girls which is funny. I want to do all kinds of things but it’s hard to make my own opinions. And another thing, it takes a long time for me to come out about anything. I mean, when I finally did this to a girl, she was actually single but I friendzoned her and she got pissed. At least I think that’s what happened but as much as I liked her, I didn’t feel like she liked me.

This guy is desperately struggling with relationships and what they mean. If you’re like me, you probably think relationships are evil and until you met this person you didn’t want anything to do with anyone out of fear of hurting them and cannot read a girl to save your life.

Another caveat I will give for myself is that the other person is genuinely abusive or harsh a lot of the time but you feel this is what you deserve because you can’t hurt them, but this it turns out is not true. I eventually left the person who I saw on a daily basis because she and I could only step on each others feet and stockman should’ve given up on her too before it came to this.

I guess I’m mostly talking about myself.

Coif says:

I disagree that the girl is right per se. But the guy probably already hates himself. They both probably do. They’re both compensating, which is the irony.

Coif says:

And if this is the guys first relationship, then can you blame him? I think it’s awful that she actually hated him all this time and didn’t say it. What if the guy understood her the whole time, put up with her abuse and selfishness, and didn’t just want sex? Just a person to listen to him sometimes, even though he listened to her all the time. What if it was she who played up to the cuteness and being pretty but she was actually hopelessly bossy? Then the roles would be reversed, she’d be the whore and he’d be a “sensitive” intellectual, especially if she were trying to seduce him or control him and he didn’t want it.

dave says:

Coif – I guess that I had zero expectations ALL the time when I was actually doing these things. What are you willing to put up with? Do you ever imagine what it would be like just to be able to have a pleasant conversation with a woman without the s–t tests and games?
Maybe you are talking about a lot of us — not just yourself.

MrAntiquity says:

Dave–

Keep this in mind–a lot of guys don’t need to really play the ‘game’ that much at all–but it’s usually because they’re not afraid to move things forward. This stuff is helpful for people who didn’t learn the skills, or who need things spelled out for them.

But there is the danger that if your conversations are too ‘pleasant’, they simply won’t go anywhere–the lukewarm date, the ambiguous friendship, things like that. All the ‘game’ does is help you push the envelope so that you can get yourself some romantic/sexual relationships, not just friendly interactions.

guitarbodylover says:

In reading this little comic, I just wanted to point out that it is my belief that where John went wrong with Sarah is that he tried to convince her with logic to like him, and we all know that women and logic do not go hand in hand(ONLY KIDDING), No but seriously, you just can’t convince a woman on an intellectual level that you are a worthy mate, that is a conclusion that she alone must come to through observing your behavior, attitude, the way you present yourself, the words you say and how you say them etc. etc. etc. These attributes have to be coming from your authentic self though, otherwise you basically “tricked” the woman to like you by acting like your idols, and I’m sure that any relationship built on false premises will surely end sooner rather than later. Bottom line: whether trickery be done through a logical explanation, or through logical behavior, it is still trickery, and can only set you up for disaster if in fact you are looking for joy in your relationships. Thank you for reading.

Fanboy says:

This comic is awesome! But, for the record, I would just like to say that you can love RPGs, comics, wanna be intellectual books and hanging around your house and STILL be decent with women. As long as you have a little balance in your life, take care of yourself, have a sense of humor about yourself, and are willing to occasionally step outside your comfort zone, you can be an otherwise introverted nerd and still have attractive women around. Now and then I even meet cute girls who are closet nerds themsleves who actually love the idea of hanging out with me at home while I binge watch Game of Thrones. Now, of course, is a more active, social lifestyle more attractive? Probably. And if becoming “super player” who dates only models at the club is your goal then… yeah… serious lifestyle change is probably necessary. But the truth is that to just be decent with normal, pretty girls, it doesn’t really take much. You don’t even really have to change your routines. Stay a nerd if you want. Avoid parties, bars and clubs if you genuinely dislike them. It’s not a big deal, women are everywhere. All you need to do is have the balls to say “hi” to that cute girl you see at the store or on the street, or wherever you happen to be as you go about your day.

LEAVE A COMMENT